Introduction: Lord Mandelson

Lord Mandelson—The Right Honourable Peter Benjamin Mandelson, having been created Baron Mandelson, of Foy in the County of Herefordshire and of Hartlepool in the County of Durham, for life, was introduced between the Baroness Jay of Paddington and the Lord Falconer of Thoroton.

Burma

Baroness Cox: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What representations they have made to the Government of Burma about the treatment by the State Peace and Development Council in Burma of ethnic national people, in particular the Karen, Chin and Rohingya peoples; and whether they will provide assistance for the relief of famine in the Chin State.

Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, we consistently raise human rights issues with the regime. Our ambassador in Rangoon has repeatedly made it clear that Burma's many problems will be solved only through dialogue between the Government, opposition and ethnic groups. DfID is providing £600,000 of emergency assistance in response to food shortages in Chin State. This year, DfID is also providing £1.8 million to assist Burmese refugees in Thailand and internally displaced people in Burma.

Baroness Cox: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very encouraging reply. Is he aware that on a recent visit to the peoples of the Chin Hill tribes in Burma, we found evidence of a serious famine which had already killed hundreds of people? Many hundreds more were ill and dying. Since we left, in just one week in one village whose people we met, seven people died—six of them children. Will DfID's welcome commitment to provide relief ensure that food reaches those most affected, particularly in view of extremely disturbing news received this morning that the SPDC authorities are not going to allow the World Food Programme or the NGOs access to those in need? The situation is desperate and I hope that the Minister can give some specific reassurance.

Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her work on this issue and for prior notice of her Question. The situation there is truly desperate, and any delays will be very serious. DfID's staff in Rangoon have become aware of the reports, but we do not know how substantial they are going to be; we will use all efforts to follow them up. The £600,000 will be routed through our UN partners, the World Food Programme and the UN Development Programme. If it goes ahead smoothly, we expect it to get to most villages within a week and the more remote villages within the next 10 to 12 days.

Lord Archer of Sandwell: My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the famine was largely caused by a massive infestation of rats? Can he further confirm that that infestation was clearly predictable, because it was associated with the blooming of the bamboo, and that the Indian Government intervened quite successfully in Mizoram to prevent a similar tragedy? Are the Burmese Government prepared to discuss famine relief with aid organisations outside, or does my noble friend share the widespread belief that the failure to act was deliberate?

Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, it is clear that Burmese preparation for this famine, which is predictable because it happens every 50 years when the bamboo goes through a particular stage, was inadequate. However, that is more symptomatic of the Burmese Government's failure to commit adequate resources to the needs of their people than poor organisation. We believe that United Nations organisations on the ground are best placed to raise these issues with the Burmese authorities. They did so in developing the aid package that DfID recently agreed to finance. We believe that a bilateral approach from the United Kingdom to the authorities on the situation in Chin State would not be effective.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, is the Minister aware of the suggestion made by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees last May that the quarter of a million Rohingyas in Bangladesh should return voluntarily—a forlorn hope as long as their relatives are being treated as non-citizens? What can be done to step up the pressure on Burma, called for by the EU a couple of weeks ago, to engage in dialogue with the ethnic groups? In particular, would the EU be prepared to visit the unofficial camps in which the quarter of a million Rohingyas are suffering appalling conditions in Bangladesh?

Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, the efforts of the EU on the political level have been significant—it is the strictest regime that has been introduced. The United Kingdom and the EU are constantly concerned about it. Whether we will be able to make more direct progress is difficult to foresee. The situation, certainly among the minorities, is terrible, with dreadful human rights violations. At the moment, we are working through the EU, the United Nations and neighbouring countries to bring pressure on the regime.

Lord Elton: My Lords, reverting to Chin State, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Archer, asked whether it was possible that the failure of the Government of Burma to bring relief was in any way deliberate. Is the Minister aware of reports that their troops in Chin State are not only resorting to what appear to be customary methods of forced labour and rape, but are destroying the population's remaining minimal stores of food? In one case, a village's entire herd of pigs was shot by the military who then demanded payment for the bullets.

Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, the Government are aware of the dreadful behaviour of this particular regime. Nevertheless, we were hopeful that the United Nations partners had agreed effective understandings with the regime that this aid would get through. We will monitor these reports carefully to see whether there is more that we can do, but at the moment we continue to believe that pressure through our UN partners will be most effective.

Lord Soley: My Lords, can the influence of India, China and Thailand be brought to bear on this state? They are the only countries in the area that Burma is willing to listen to. Can we exercise our influence through them to do something about this terrible regime?

Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I am sure that we will. The adjacent nations, ASEAN and the UN achieved an agreement with the regime about the cyclone, which has actually worked quite well: aid is getting through. I am therefore sure that, if we have more problems than we originally thought in getting the aid through, the strong influence of adjacent nations will be brought to bear.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, my colleague Andrew Mitchell in the other place has been pressing for more aid to Burma for a long time. Further to the Minister's Answer, what support have Her Majesty's Government been giving to the cross-border aid from Thailand?

Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, we only resort to cross-border aid in extreme cases, when it is not getting through any other way. However, we are providing modest financial support for cross-border aid from Thailand.

Pakistan: Afghanistan Border

Lord Eden of Winton: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What recent discussions they have had with the Government of Pakistan about the security of its border with Afghanistan.

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, border security is crucial for regional stability and for both Governments' effort to combat the threat from violent extremism. It is part of our ongoing dialogue with the Government of Pakistan. It has been discussed at ministerial level, most recently by my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary with President Zardari on 16 September and 25 September respectively.

Lord Eden of Winton: My Lords, it is good news that these discussions are going on. However, will the noble Lord address in particular the position of the federally administered tribal areas? Although it is traditionally a lawless region, has not the situation now got to the point where firm action is really necessary? Can he say whether the new civil Government of Pakistan and the army of Pakistan are working more closely together? Is not the time now right for a united effort to be made by the United States of America, ISAF and Pakistan to eliminate the many bases, terrorist camps and other establishments that are aiding and abetting militias based in the FATA region?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the noble Lord is correct that the FATA region has historically been, and is currently, a very unstable place which is host to many elements that do not respect the rule of central government. The new president, President Zardari, has made welcome comments about the need to crack down on this with both a reinforced military and political approach. He has also met with the President of Afghanistan, and they have promised mutual co-operation. The United States and the United Kingdom certainly have a role in supporting these efforts.

Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Pakistan Government are, as we speak, meeting in a joint session of Parliament to try to resolve the security situation along that border? Is he also aware that the new head of Inter-Services Intelligence—ISI—has told parliamentarians in his briefing that the military concedes that the peace talks with the Taliban along the border have not succeeded—that that strategy has failed—hence the resort to military operations again? Yet at the same time our ambassador in Afghanistan is supposedly brokering peace talks for the Taliban to return to government in Afghanistan. Which strategy do we really believe in—supporting the pro-democracy groups, or rolling out the red carpet for the Taliban? Or do we want to please both parties at the same time?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, not for the first time, the noble Baroness is better informed than I am. I am not privy to the current discussions in the Pakistan Parliament but I think that it is true to say that both the Government of Pakistan and Pakistan's military leadership believe that there must be a push on both fronts. There must be effective military action against lawless elements, including Taliban and al-Qaeda elements, but there must also be a political effort to win back the support of civilians in the tribal areas. These two goals are not contradictory.
	For the record, our ambassador in Afghanistan is absolutely not engaged in a process of rolling out red carpets for the Taliban or arranging for their return to government; he is pursing British interests there, which are to encourage President Karzai to have an effective military strategy against insurgents in the eastern and southern parts of Afghanistan and, similarly, to pursue reconciliation with the Pashtun tribes in that area.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, further to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Eden, are we not talking here mostly about the Bajaur agency district and the Swat district of the federally administrated areas, and about a border that is 1,640 miles long? Given that it is widely supposed that al-Qaeda has its headquarters in this inaccessible region, that Osama bin Laden is there if he is still alive, and that the main purpose of putting our troops into Afghanistan in the first place was to corner him and his immediate aides, is there the necessary co-operation between the ANA, the US forces and the Pakistan intelligence and army, and are we in the UK—since our interests are directly affected—also making a contribution, possibly with the new troops that we are sending in that direction?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the noble Lord makes a vital point. We have to understand that the border dividing the two areas is a recently modern invention and we must therefore treat it as a single area populated by people who are linked by tribal and ethnic associations. Every day, thousands of people cross the border. Any solution to this area must therefore take a comprehensive view, and that requires common co-ordinated action by both Governments supported by the likes of the United States and ourselves. We are moving forward very strongly on that. However, the troops that we are sending are at this stage for the purpose of reinforcing our operations in Helmand on the Afghan side of the border.

The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, one of the consequences of an insecure border with Pakistan has been the infiltration into Helmand. Will the Minister comment on the latest severe attack on Lashkar Gah and whether there are non-Afghan forces involved that have infiltrated?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the noble Earl refers to reports at the weekend of a large insurgent action in Lashkar Gah which will have dismayed many of us. The good news is that the Afghan military and security forces played a front-line role in averting it. It is too soon to say whether non-Afghan elements were involved, but we will certainly report to the House when we know more about the incident.

Channel Tunnel: Road Freight

Lord Berkeley: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	Whether, following the fire on 11 September, they will review the safety regulations applying to the carrying of road freight through the Channel Tunnel.

Lord Adonis: My Lords, the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission, acting in the name of the British and French Governments, has asked the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority to conduct a fundamental review of the extent to which experience has modified the original risk-assessment assumptions for the tunnel and to make recommendations. We expect its final report to be made public no later than September 2009.

Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. The best part of a year seems a long time to have to wait for a response. Is he aware that this is the second major fire that has occurred since the tunnel opened? I believe that in both cases a large length of the tunnel lining was burnt out and collapsed, which means that the sea-bed is standing up on its own. Luckily, nobody was hurt on this occasion. My noble friend will be aware that services have been disrupted, and probably will be for many months. Is there an argument for taking precautionary measures to ensure that this does not happen again in the interim and that the carriage of trucks is either restricted or banned until the existing study is completed?

Lord Adonis: My Lords, I shall certainly draw my noble friend's remarks on the interim arrangements to the attention of the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority. However, as regards the safety of the trucks, following the fire in 1996, the Health and Safety Executive commissioned, as he will know, an independent review of the design of the shuttle trains, which concluded that any risks attached to the design were as low as reasonably practicable.

Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I follow the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, in saying that surely September 2009 is rather a long way away, and another incident could well happen again. Surely the Government could take some action—for example, looking at the amount of flammable liquid that is carried on heavy goods vehicles and encouraging more transport of rail freight rather than on trucks going through the tunnel. It is a matter of urgency, and I hope that the Government will reflect and do something before 2009.

Lord Adonis: My Lords, we will draw noble Lords' remarks to the attention of the safety authority, but our current advice is that there is no reason to make any early changes. I stress that I said that the final report will be made public,
	"no later than September 2009";
	I hope that it will be possible to move sooner than that.

Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, no doubt the fires have cost huge sums of money and there is a need to act very quickly to get some fire suppression equipment fixed to the trucks that carry the lorries through the tunnel. When you look at these things in discounted cash flow, you can always prove that there is not a business case, but we have had two fires, and it is urgently necessary that the ordinary fire suppression devices that are fixed to so many buildings are fixed to the carriages that pass through the Channel Tunnel.

Lord Adonis: My Lords, I note the noble Lord's remarks, but I stress again that, following the last fire, the HSE commissioned an independent review of the design, which concluded that any risks were as low as reasonably practicable. At the moment, we have no reason to believe that there is an issue of public concern here, but we have asked the authority to look at any lessons that can be learnt from the recent fire.

Lord Brookman: My Lords, would it not now be appropriate to congratulate the firefighters and other services on their magnificent effort during that terrible disaster and the previous one as well? They are a credit to our country.

Lord Adonis: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. As a House, we wish to send those congratulations. We also congratulate Eurotunnel and all the staff on the work that they have done to bring services back to normal, as near as possible, in the short time since the fire.

Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I am told that toll-paying tunnels such as the Mersey tunnel have much stricter regulations for the transport through them of flammables and so on than non-toll-paying tunnels such as the Conwy tunnel. What have the Government in mind to get both tunnels under the same sort of regulations? Many of the trucks that go through these tunnels are carrying very dangerous materials.

Lord Adonis: My Lords, I have already said all I can say on the Channel Tunnel. I am not familiar with the precise safety regimes for the other tunnels that the noble Lord mentioned, but I would be happy to look at them and come back to the noble Lord.

Lord Berkeley: My Lords, perhaps I may come back to my noble friend's very helpful answer in respect of the Channel Tunnel and to the comments from the safety authority that, after the previous fire, the risks were thought to be as low as reasonably practicable. I suggest to my noble friend that something is wrong if a risk that is as low as reasonably practicable has allowed another fire to happen within 12 years. Is my noble friend confident that this is not going to happen again in the next year before the safety authority reports?

Lord Adonis: My Lords, we have asked the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority to report precisely in order that it will look at those issues. As I said, I hope that it will be possible to make public its report much sooner than next September, but I cannot give an absolute commitment for it to do so. I would not want my noble friend or the House to think that there is any lack of urgency about these proceedings on the part of the safety authorities both here and in France. There is a great deal of urgency to see that we learn the lessons as soon as possible.

Equitable Life

Baroness Noakes: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What is their response to the report of the Parliamentary Ombudsman into Equitable Life.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Parliamentary Ombudsman has invited the Government to consider the issues raised in her report and reflect on what the response to it should be. The Government are considering the ombudsman's report carefully and, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in the other place on 8 October, they will give their response to Parliament shortly.

Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. The first recommendation of the ombudsman was for a public apology from those public bodies, including the Treasury, which had let Equitable members down. The second recommendation was for a government-funded compensation scheme. To date, we have had only prevarication from the Government. Even if the Minister cannot give a detailed response today, will he say that the Government accept the principle of paying compensation? Also, can he give any good reason for the deafening silence that we have in place of an apology?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, it is right that the Government should give a full response to the ombudsman's report, and all the issues that the noble Baroness has raised will be considered in that response. The report was published on 17 July. The Chancellor has indicated that we intend to give the response shortly. The noble Baroness will also recognise that Ministers have been rather busy on significant matters in recent weeks. Of course this matter is important; the Chancellor indicated in his reply that he intends to apply the full resources of the Treasury to the issue in the very near future.

Lord Newby: My Lords, the Minister is being suitably vague about the next stage of the procedure—namely, when we will get any sort of response from the Government at all. At the very least, do the Government accept the recommendations of the ombudsman's report in terms of timing—namely, that any scheme approved by Parliament should be established within six months of that decision being taken and that the scheme should complete its work within two years thereafter? The problem faced by pensioners, of course, is that they are getting older and the number of people who stand to benefit from the compensation scheme reduces with every passing day.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord has indicated how important, but how complex, the issues are and the requirements upon the Government to get their response right and to act accordingly. That is why we have taken time to consider the report, but we intend to make that statement shortly, as I have indicated.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, on how many occasions during the lifetime of the present Government, the past 11 years, have they not given effect to recommendations of the parliamentary commissioner for administration? Given that that important office was created by a Labour Government in 1967, and was one of their great achievements, has not the time come to look again at whether Governments should be compelled to comply with the commissioner's recommendations?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, there is no question of the Government needing to be compelled to respond to the Parliamentary Ombudsman's recommendations. We intend to respond to the report in the very near future. The noble Lord is absolutely right; the Government take the role of the ombudsman very seriously indeed. This is a very important report with profound implications for a number of our fellow citizens and it is only right that the Government should consider it fully and make a full and constructive response as soon as they are able to. That will be in the very near future.

The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, the noble Lord studiously avoided answering the important question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Lester: how many times have the Government not followed the ombudsman's advice? Can we have an answer, please?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I did not give an answer because I have not got one for that question. I wanted to emphasise that the Government of course regard the ombudsman's reports very seriously indeed and that is why we are preparing our response to this very important report, published just before the Summer Recess. The whole House will recognise the importance of the issues and their complexity. The Government will respond to the report shortly.

Lord Elton: My Lords, will the noble Lord get an answer to my noble friend's question and give it to us in due course?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I would be only too happy to do so, but the noble Lord will surely give the Government credit for the fact that they are approaching this report with due seriousness, as they have done all other reports of the ombudsman because it performs an important public service, which asks serious questions of the Government, to which they respond constructively.

Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, in one of the ombudsman's comments blame was laid—in part, anyway—on the Financial Services Authority. When it was set up, it was told to regulate with a light touch. Given the current banking crisis, which was made considerably worse by that light touch, do the Government consider that the time has come to give new instructions to the FSA?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we already appreciate the importance of changing aspects of the regulatory regime, but I hope that the House will count the number of times when representations come from supporters of the party opposite on the need for increased regulation of aspects of our financial services.

Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, can my noble friend indicate how often the Conservative Government produced a report within a similar time? I think that the answer will be never.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, my noble friend is very kindly further exposing my ignorance on this matter because I cannot produce the answer in quantitative terms. However, the House will appreciate that criticism of the regulatory regime, to which the Parliamentary Ombudsman gave voice, covered the decade before 2000, and during seven of those 10 years the other side formed the Administration.

Lord Naseby: My Lords, I speak as someone who has read the report. With regard to the Government's response and to those of us who were practising in the early part of that period, is the Minister aware that that there was a big difference between the responsibilities of the Department of Trade and Industry and the management at that time, and those of the later period, when the FSA was the authority involved?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord knows these matters well and, as he indicated, followed the report carefully. The issues relating to responsibility are complex. We had the report from Lord Penrose prior to the ombudsman's examination and he indicated the number of organisations that had been remiss. However, the House may recall that his overwhelming concern was that Equitable Life had brought the financial crisis upon itself.

Lord Higgins: My Lords, the ombudsman described the Equitable saga as a "decade of regulatory failure", but has there not also been a decade of stonewalling by one after another of the government departments concerned, with the same officials in fact moving from one department to another? Following a period when the Government have done everything possible, as indeed the ombudsman's predecessor did, not to reach a conclusion on this matter, should we not have a rapid decision on it? Should we not in fact have a debate on the matter before the Government take a view, as the ombudsman recommended?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, these are complex issues. I agree with the noble Lord that it is now important for the Government to respond to the clearly defined ombudsman's report. We intend to do so and to put an end to what he regards as stonewalling but, as I reflected, merely relates to the complexity of the issues concerned.

Business

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I suspect that the debate on the first group of amendments on the Counter-Terrorism Bill will be substantial. Therefore, for the convenience of the House, I suggest that my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham repeats the Statement on financial markets at the conclusion of the debate on that first group.

Immigration (Discharged Gurkhas) Bill [HL]

Read a third time.

Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass. I draw your Lordships' attention to the pronouncement in the High Court that the current immigration policy of denying visas is unlawful and needs urgent revisiting. In the light of that, I hope that Her Majesty's Government will now support the Bill.
	Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Lee of Trafford.)

Lord Brett: My Lords, in the light of the court ruling, urgent action has been taken to publish new guidance and to review all cases outstanding by the end of the year. The new policy guidance will be published at the turn of this month and a copy will be placed in the Library. Additional resources are being redeployed to ensure that we honour our commitments to the Gurkhas by reading all the 1,000 overseas applications, plus the 200 in-country appeals by the end of the year.
	On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons

Counter-Terrorism Bill

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
	House in Committee accordingly.
	[The LORD SPEAKER in the Chair.]

Lord Dear: moved Amendment No. 29:
	Before Clause 22, insert the following new Clause—
	"No extension of pre-charge detention
	For the avoidance of doubt, nothing in this Act allows the Secretary of State to extend the maximum period of pre-charge detention beyond 28 days."

Lord Dear: On 8 July this year, your Lordships gave a Second Reading to this Bill in proceedings that lasted seven and a half hours. Almost 50 noble Lords spoke; most concentrated on the issue of 28 days' detention; and the overwhelming majority was opposed to the extension. It was big news at the time; indeed, it was very big news. Since then nothing of any consequence has arisen that might alter the arguments. Of course, world economic news dominates the agenda, and despite our preoccupation with the economy, I suggest that this issue remains one of prime constitutional importance, bearing considerations of national security and the civil and legal rights of citizens. The arguments—or battle lines—are clearly drawn.
	Importantly, we are all agreed on one thing: the current threat to western democracies from extremist groups and terrorists is higher now than it has ever been. The suicide bomber has changed the security landscape. The police often have to intervene much earlier in the process than they once would have done, and by doing that they are trying to protect the public from undue risk. At the same time, the evidence available to them is much less than would have been the case elsewhere. It is often incomplete. The investigations are often much more complex. Terrorist groups are often highly sophisticated. They are certainly surveillance conscious and can see all their communications networks with very great skill and at very great depth. All that leads to difficult and protracted investigative processes. I need hardly say that investigators often work under great pressures of time. So, we can all agree to this point.
	The Government now suggest that the present limit of 28 days' detention for those arrested for terrorist offences may be too restrictive. They say that sooner or later more time will be needed to complete a proper investigation. They say that the law needs amendment to give the prosecution in some circumstances up to 42 days in which to complete the investigation—a process that was described in a newspaper by one commentator back in the summer as having something in the "legal back pocket", just in case. That is a clumsy phrase but perhaps it encapsulates the essence of the argument being advanced.
	I shall outline briefly six solid reasons why I take issue with this and why I have tabled the amendment. First, there is no evidence to date that we have ever come close to running out of time within the present 28-day limit. The DPP is very clear on this point. Hitting the 28-day buffers is not seen by him or his staff as likely in the foreseeable future. To date, most charges have been brought at or before 14 days. In those cases where charges were preferred closer to 28 days, we are told that evidence was often already available to prefer the charges earlier, but the authorities delayed just in case further, more serious evidence was forthcoming.
	Secondly, no other country in the western world that has a common law system like ours—an accusatorial rather than an inquisitorial system—has extended detention without charge to 42 days. In fact, no country has gone as far as 28 days. The nearest comparison is Australia with 12 days, and all the rest of the comparable countries operate with single figures. I need hardly remind your Lordships that in America it is two days and in Canada it is one day. So why the marked disparity? Those countries often face a threat similar to our own. How is it that they manage and we apparently cannot?

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: The noble Lord said that in the United States people are kept in detention for up to two days only. How does he reconcile that with the prisoners in Guantanamo?

Lord Dear: I understand that the detainees in Guantanamo were arrested outside the USA and its jurisdiction.
	Thirdly, there is almost universal opposition to what the Government propose. It almost beggars belief that any Administration could embark on such a course. Just look at the list of those who oppose the Government: the Law Society; Amnesty; Liberty; Justice; the previous Attorney-General; the previous Solicitor-General and Lord Chancellor; and successive Directors of Public Prosecutions. There are many others, but perhaps the most important person to note in that list is the Director of Public Prosecutions. DPPs are uniquely required to evaluate evidence as it comes in during the course of the investigation, make a professional judgment on the adequacy of the material and watch the time on the judicial clock. The police and the security services have conducted some outstanding operations in recent years, but the DPP alone is the best judge, arguably the only judge, of the evidential state of play. The police have a view, of course, but the DPP is the one who we should listen to on this point, and successive directors have opposed the proposed changes.
	The official position of the police via the ACPO is now merely that the extension to 42 days would be advantageous, and it would be from the standpoint of purely investigative procedures alone. However, I have to tell this House that numerous chief constables have told me privately that they see no reason for the extension and that they do not support it. As an aside, I can only say would that some public servants were less afraid of speaking out openly.
	Fourthly, as for the suggested mechanism by which the Government would seek to extend from 28 to 42 days—it is set out in Clause 23 and thereafter—frankly, I have nothing but scorn for it. It is a Byzantine procedure that seeks to give Parliament a quasi-judicial role and runs grave risks of breaching sub judice arrangements. It has been roundly condemned, in particular by Mr Andy Hayman, who until recently was the assistant commissioner in the Metropolitan Police charged with co-ordinating all national counterterrorism operations. In a long article in the Times on 6 October, he wrote a number of things in virtually rubbishing this Bill. He wrote:
	"The Bill is about politics and it won't work".
	He also wrote that,
	"the Government's current proposals are not fit for purpose: they are bureaucratic, convoluted and unworkable".
	I invite noble Lords to agree with me that he should know what he is talking about.

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: Does the noble Lord not agree that Andy Hayman also made it very clear that he still believes that more than 28 days is necessary? Andy Hayman is concerned about the administration and the points that have been put into the Bill, but he still believes, as he believed when he argued for 90 days, that we need more than 28 days.

Lord Dear: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for telling me that. I knew it, and I was going to comment on it later. Andy Hayman said that the mechanism to try to move the timescale from 28 days to 42 was, I repeat,
	"not fit for purpose ... bureaucratic, convoluted and unworkable".
	He went on to say of the proposals that,
	"just trying to understand them gives me a headache".
	The full text is in the Times of 6 October, and I refer the noble Baroness to it.
	Andy Hayman was making the same point as ACPO, which said that it would like some sort of mechanism that took us into an area of certainty if we were running up against the 28 days. That was my next point: to ask your Lordships why we should embark on such a course, if we were ever to face running out of time at 28 days, when the existing law can come to our aid. One can use existing law. As it is almost inconceivable that we would hold anyone in custody at the 27-day—not the 28-day—point without there being some evidence against them, one should simply charge them with the lesser offence under terrorism legislation. There are many possibilities—membership of a proscribed organisation, possession of material, preparatory acts and so on—that one might call the second division of terrorist offences, falling short of the gravest of those offences.
	One therefore charges the lesser offence and continues the investigation, and if evidence of a more serious offence comes to light, one charges that later. The point is that at the time of the first charge, the 28-day clock stops running. In fact, all clocks in that judicial sense stop running. The defendant now has access to legal representation and appears before a court. In short, he is in the normal judicial process. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, will shortly propose an amendment that will allow post-charge questioning in circumstances with a judicial overview, and I shall support him. Again, the existing law, with only a very slight amendment, can quite adequately give us the flexibility that we need without adding the inflammatory words "42 days".
	That is my fifth point; those words would most certainly be inflammatory, and would almost certainly give ammunition to those who seek to justify acts of terrorism against us—those who, in other words, seek to recruit others to oppose what they contend is our repressive regime—and it would be an act of sheer folly to provide them with such a gift.
	I have made five points so far: we have never come close to running out of time, and if we did we could use the existing law; no other common-law country has more than a 12-day limit; there is massive opposition to this suggestion from some of the most influential and respected quarters; the suggested mechanisms, or procedures, are unworkable; and there is a risk of a fundamental backlash. This legislation is fatally flawed, ill thought through and unnecessary.
	I said that I had six points. My sixth point is that, perhaps worst of all, the legislation seeks further to erode fundamental, legal and civil rights that have been the pride of this country for centuries. Simple mathematics will tell us that 793 years ago Magna Carta declared in one line:
	"'To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right or justice".
	We have recommended that principle to the rest of the world and have in part fought wars to preserve it. It set our legal system apart from the world for many years and it was held up as an exemplar. We have gone far enough. There is no proven case for change. This attempt to appear tough on terrorism is a shabby charade that is unworthy of a democratic process, and we should reject it. I beg to move.

Baroness Neville-Jones: I support the amendment. Many Members of the Committee will have seen the report in the Times on 6 October, which said that the Government have effectively dropped the proposals to extend pre-charge detention to 42 days and that they would,
	"effectively confine the controversial proposal ... to the legislative dustbin".
	So why are we debating this again? It is a criminal offence to waste police time and I wonder whether that offence also extends to wasting the time of the Committee.
	This debate is an unhelpful distraction. It distracts us at a time when we should be concentrating our energies on more pressing issues: that is, the economy; other sensitive parts of this Bill, such as inquiries and inquests; post-charge questioning, which we on these Benches would like to see play a useful role in terrorist investigations, but with suitable safeguards; or things that will really aid us in the prosecution of terrorism, such as the use of intercept evidence, a measure that should be in the Bill, but is not.
	The proposal to extend pre-charge detention fails on three significant grounds; namely, necessity, desirability and practicability. Let me be clear: the proposal is unnecessary, undesirable and unworkable. I shall address each of those points briefly. When the Government first put forward the proposal to extend pre-charge detention from the current 28-day limit, we made it clear that there needs to be evidence to support that; that we would need to see this evidence; that the Government need to make the case; and that we would consider it seriously. On these Benches, we take the terrorist threat to this country every bit as seriously as do the Government. As I said at Second Reading, there is no difference between us on that. Wherever possible, we strive for agreement on security matters.
	But the Government have signally failed to demonstrate need. What they have relied on is a hypothetical scenario—what they call "pragmatic inference"—to make the case. Sir Ian Blair has said explicitly,
	"We have never put forward a case that there is evidence of a need for an extension".
	The Government have relied primarily on the complexity of modern plots and, therefore, the difficulty of investigation. If that constituted overwhelming justification, one would expect that those who had to mount the prosecution would indicate their support for the measure.
	But just the opposite is the case. The Director of Public Prosecutions has made clear that he does not think that it is necessary. The prosecutors do not perceive any need for the period of 28 days to be increased. He collapsed the Government's case for a hypothetical situation. He said:
	"It is possible to set up all sorts of hypotheses. Anything is possible. The question is whether it is remotely likely".
	Many other experienced figures have similarly said that it is unnecessary, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, a former Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, a former Attorney-General, the Lord Advocate and many former Lord Advocates, some of whom are here today. In its report dated 8 October, the Joint Committee on Human Rights commented that it is hard,
	"to see how the Government can plausibly claim that there is a pressing necessity to extend further the maximum period ... when the existing power to detain for more than 14 days ... has only ever been used in a small number of cases and has not been used at all for well over a year".
	So the Government's case is not good enough as grounds for taking power to keep people in detention for periods much longer than any other comparable democracy thinks necessary to confront the terrorist threat, a point just made by the noble Lord, Lord Dear. Moreover, Parliament must balance the evidence for this measure, such as it is, against its desirability—my second point—and against its wider effects. In his very powerful intervention, the noble Lord, Lord Dear, repeated a remark he made some time ago to the effect that the previously described proposal to extend pre-charge detention to 42 days was a propaganda coup and a recruiting sergeant for al-Qaeda. The Home Office's own risk assessment for the proposal stated,
	"It puts at risk the flow of community intelligence".
	That is the Government's own department. Community intelligence is a priority area for counterterrorism work. We have not got it quite right yet, but these proposals will hinder us unnecessarily in trying to get it right, and I personally attach a great deal of importance to the development of community intelligence. Let me be clear: these are security warnings. The proposal to extend pre-charge detention has real potential security drawbacks.
	Let us assume for a moment that if this proposal was desirable and necessary, which it is not, would we consider it workable? The answer is no. The former Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, made clear his view that the procedures to be established are so cumbersome that the police and the prosecuting authorities will be most unlikely to seek their extension. And as the noble Lord, Lord Dear, mentioned, Mr Andy Hayman, the former assistant commissioner for special operations, wrote recently that the process the police and the prosecution would have to go through just will not work. We have to take the comments of the police in this respect seriously since they will be involved in trying to make these procedures work. Indeed, Mr Hayman went further and wrote that at the height of a terrorist investigation it would distract efforts to solve or prevent the crime by forcing the police to prepare a "politically acceptable" case for an extension. The last thing we need in such circumstances is the taint of spinning.
	That leads me to the final objection to this proposal. The apparent safeguards the Government have put in place not only make the proposal unworkable, they also make it constitutionally worrying. The Constitution Committee said that they run the risk of conflating the roles of Parliament and the judiciary. They will place on Parliament demands to act in a quasi-judicial manner. The safeguards are also inadequate to attain their ostensible objective—the prevention of the abuse of power. The excessively broad drafting of these provisions could actually lead to such abuses. Were Parliament able to conduct the sort of scrutiny of an order for the reserved power that it should if it were to provide a real safeguard against the abuse of executive power, it would be in great danger of prejudicing any subsequent trial, with all the adverse consequences for justice that could entail.
	On the other hand, if it were to avoid that danger, Parliament would be prohibited from conducting real scrutiny. The Secretary of State has herself said that much the greater part of the material aspects could not be debated by Parliament, so it would not provide any real safeguard. Indeed, it would put itself in danger of conniving with acts over which it had no real control. That would not be worthy of either House, nor of our democracy, and the Government should not put forward proposals which risk the reputation of Parliament in this way. As the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, said in her maiden speech, we are all trying to facilitate the work of the police, intelligence and security services to detect and counter terrorism, and we are all agreed on that. But to fulfil our constitutional role, we must ensure that our laws in this sensitive area of national life are relevant and proportionate. The proposal to extend pre-charge detention to 42 days fails on both grounds, and that is why we oppose it.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: Does the noble Baroness agree that the proposals in the 30th report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights go a long way to answer her arguments about what is unworkable and improper?

Baroness Neville-Jones: I have read the report which contains a number of interesting proposals and a very acute analysis; I agree with some of them but have reservations about others. However, it is certainly a serious contribution to our debate today.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: We on these Benches support the amendment so powerfully moved by the noble Lord, Lord Dear. Anyone who has travelled from British airports over the past two years will know that they have had to carry their toothpaste, shaving cream and toiletries in a clear plastic bag and they have been reduced to carrying one item of luggage. It has not been the easiest time for travellers.
	This is a result of Operation Overt. Twenty-four suspects—young Muslim men—were arrested on the night of 9 August 2006. After 12 days, on 21 August, 11 were charged with conspiracy to blow up aeroplanes in flight by mixing liquids together, carried, it is said, in Lucozade bottles, into an explosive concoction. An application to extend time beyond 14 days was granted in respect of another nine. Of these, six were subsequently charged—two on 15 August, some 16 days after arrest; three on 30 August, after 21 days; and three were released after being held for, respectively, 24 days, 27 days and 27-and-a-half days. Of the 21 who were charged, only eight eventually faced trial some 18 months later. On 8 September, only four weeks ago, two years after the original arrests, the jury, after more than 50 hours of deliberations, was unable to agree any verdict against seven of the defendants relating to the plot to blow up aircraft. Three were, however, found guilty of other conspiracy to murder charges; one was acquitted entirely. So the total bag out of the 24 who were originally arrested was three convictions unrelated to the airline plot. I say no more about it for the reason the intervention was made just now. I am told that there may be retrials and that the Government are facing expensive civil litigation from airlines who lost millions from the restrictions imposed upon them.
	But would the outcome of these trials have been any different if those people had been kept without charge for 42 days? The period for detention in Spain is 14 days. Twenty-nine suspects were arrested for the Madrid bombings and there were 21 convictions. I made the point at Second Reading that the charging of a suspect does not for a moment inhibit the continuing investigation of an alleged offence. So there is no case whatever for suggesting that 42 days will bring about a conviction when 28 days will not. The Home Office agrees because, in its consultation paper, Options for Pre-Charge Detention in Terrorism Cases, published in July 2007, it acknowledged that there has been no case in which a suspect was released but a higher limit than 28 days would definitely have led to a charge.
	My noble friend Lord Carlile put it more elegantly in his evidence to the Commons Home Affairs Committee in October last year when he said,
	"in an intelligent argument on this issue a number of days is entirely arbitrary, so that you cannot say with logical empirical analysis that 14 or 28 or 30 or 56 or 90 days—or any particular number of days—is actually the perfect cut-off ",
	although he recognised that Parliament would impose a cut-off. His sayings and writings have been pored over on the Government Benches with a zeal matched only by Scotland's famous son, Alexander Cruden, when he created his 1737 concordance of the Bible. But they seem to have missed this one. I sincerely hope that my noble friend Lord Carlile will develop the argument he advanced last October for a proper and fully human rights-compliance system of judicial control of detention before charge. He does not need any help from me.
	A fundamental concern arises from the proposition that a young Muslim—and they all have been young Muslims—should be arrested on nothing more than the words of an officer, "I believe you to be a terrorist". According to the highly experienced defence barrister, Ali Naseem Bajwa, who gave evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, detainees are taken to the police station and told nothing for many days of the basis upon which they are there. In Operation Overt, it emerged that disclosure was virtually non-existent for the first week of custody. Disclosure is, of course, where the police tell the defence solicitor, if there is one, of the nature of the matters about which they intend to question the suspect. Over the first four days of their detention, there were only three hours, on average, of total questioning of each detainee—three hours over four days each. Rather than being about any offence they may have committed, the questioning was mostly about their personal circumstances and background. Those who were charged after 15 days—the first group—were interviewed in total for 13 to 14 hours each. That is rather less than one hour a day. Those who lingered on to the end of the 28-day period before being released spent only the same amount of time overall—13 to 14 hours—in interview. Many days of their last 15 passed without any interview at all; the average was for 10 minutes a day. So extending time limits for questioning suspects seems to encourage a very leisurely approach.
	The essential thing to remember is that if a detainee is held without charging, it means that the police have no reasonable suspicion that he has committed any terrorist offence at all, even the mildest form of terrorist offence—that of preparation for committing a terrorist offence. If they do have such evidence, they are under a legal duty to charge him.
	In September 2005, the Director of Public Prosecutions, Sir Ken Macdonald, issued to prosecutors an explanatory guide on the application of the threshold test, which allows the prosecutor to charge where there is no more than a reasonable suspicion that an offence has been committed. In terrorist cases, that reasonable suspicion may arise on evidence which would be inadmissible in court—for example, intelligence or intercept evidence. That guide was, however, not made public. Indeed, it does not seem to have reached its intended target for some time: Deputy Assistant Commissioner Clarke, head of the Met terrorist branch, told the Home Affairs Committee in February 2006 that he did not think the threshold test was at all applicable to these cases. However, Sir Ken Macdonald, the retiring DPP, told the Home Affairs Committee last December that,
	"given the nature of the threshold test, the evidence is only required to demonstrate a reasonable suspicion that the defendant committed the offence. I can only say to you that our experience so far has been that we have managed and managed reasonably comfortably".
	In my Second Reading speech, I outlined the practical reasons why detention without charge will lead to a drying up of intelligence to the security services, upon which all investigation depends, and how that will inevitably increase terrorism and diminish the security of the people of this country. Today I focus upon the weaknesses and the so-called extension hearings, where the DPP or a Crown prosecutor acting with his consent, can apply to a senior judge for extensions of time. Those extensions will continue to be governed by Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act, which the Bill seeks to amend.
	Those weaknesses are these: the applications to extend time beyond the original 14 days may be made ex parte. In other words, the hearing, or part of a hearing, may be held between the prosecution and the judge in private and in the absence of the accused, or of anybody representing him. Secondly, information may be withheld from the detainee or his lawyers so that he is not told the state of play in the investigation against him. Mr Bajwa described how in one case he was given three applications, identically worded, to support three applications for more time in respect of the same detainee—the same wording for seven to 14 days as from 14 days to 21 and 21 to 28. In other words, nothing further was disclosed as to the state of the investigation.
	Thirdly, the detainee has no entitlement to be brought in person before the judge. He may be dealt with by videolink from the hallway of Paddington Green police station. The judge, who is supposed to be monitoring his welfare, has the opportunity to see the detainee only on television. It is a brave person who complains about the circumstances of his detention when surrounded by his jailers.
	Fourthly, according to the Crown Prosecution Service, cross-examination of the senior investigating officer to test the strength of the application is not a legal entitlement. The senior officer who is making the application is not required to answer questions by the detainee or his lawyer on the reasonableness of the application that he is making.
	It is therefore no surprise that no application for extension has ever been refused and there has been only one occasion on which the number of days has been reduced. You can see why. The police tell the judge that they have plenty of irons in the fire. They say, "The investigation's going well. You must trust us. If anything should turn up in our investigations, we want the detainee there so that we can question him about it".
	These are not proper, full, adversarial hearings. As the Joint Committee on Human Rights put it in its ninth report, issued on 7 February, the Bill contains,
	"no additional judicial safeguards ... and the existing ... safeguards do not provide a proper opportunity, at a truly judicial hearing at which the parties are on equal terms, to challenge the reasonableness of the suspicion on the basis of which they are detained".
	In other words, the Government are using the judiciary as a convenient cover to give an aura of respectability to what is essentially executive detention.
	I will not weary the Committee with pointing out the innumerable breaches of the European Convention on Human Rights; the injustice and the lack of fairness are obvious. Nor do I propose to dwell on the farce of asking Members of Parliament to vote on whether an individual should be held in custody on the basis of a redacted statement provided by the Home Secretary to the obvious prejudice of any future trial, which is not just unconstitutional but contemptible. I join all noble Lords who care for fairness and justice in calling for these proposals to be thrown out and for our real security to be maintained by sticking to the values on which the civilisation of this country depends.

Baroness Mallalieu: It is not a comfortable or happy position to find myself speaking and in due course, I trust, voting against my own party, but I have added my name to the amendment because the proposals in Clauses 22 to 33 are dangerously wrong in principle and wholly unnecessary in practice. In the Bill, we are in real danger of sacrificing something of real importance for no good reason—indeed, totally unnecessarily. As the noble Lord, Lord Dear, reminded us, our constitutional safeguards, which took centuries of struggle to achieve, are fragile. I am afraid that an important element of them could be destroyed in the eight minutes that it takes to vote in this House.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I have great respect for my noble friend in a whole range of areas, but will she explain to me the difference in principle between 28 days and 42 days? Surely it is just a matter of practice, not principle.

Baroness Mallalieu: I shall come to that. I do not think that the noble Lord was in the Chamber when we debated 28 days.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I was.

Baroness Mallalieu: I apologise. I certainly did not support 28 days because there is a principle, and 28 days is beyond it. I hope that I shall come shortly to the point raised by the noble Lord.
	It is surely an essential ingredient of living in what we still call a free country that we are free from the fear of being locked up without charge. On occasions—I think that this is the point of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes—we accept that it is necessary in the interests of public safety to restrict that principle. When it is, it is surely once again the mark of a free country that we do so for the minimum time possible. We should not throw away any of our liberties as we are asked to do by the Bill just in case it may become necessary in future or for no compelling reason or as a result of speculation, because, once we go down that path and unless someone says "Stop", that road leads on to indefinite detention, which others to their shame have followed.
	Another important principle of living in a free society is surely that the law should not only apply but also be seen to apply equally to everyone. As the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford said at Second Reading, these provisions are viewed by many in the Muslim communities, which do not support terrorism, as a confirmation that those in power make special rules for them and regard their freedoms more lightly than those of ordinary criminals, for whom the limit of detention without charge is lower. In the war against terrorism, as the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, has indicated, these provisions are an own goal.
	Attempts have been made to persuade both Houses that this legislation contains meaningful safeguards, but, as others—notably, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas—have pointed out, it does nothing of the sort. There cannot be effective judicial oversight before a person is charged because there is no sufficient evidence for a court to test. If there were, the detainee would have had to have been charged. Nor can there be effective parliamentary oversight, because, as others have already said, Parliament cannot examine individual cases pre-trial because the result would be prejudice, which would prevent the trial ultimately taking place. The so-called safeguards therefore have as much substance as the back of the envelope on which they appear to have been drafted in order to push these measures past a vote in another place.

Lord Clinton-Davis: What is the difference between what the noble Baroness postulates now and the provision that somebody can apply for bail? There is no hearing in their defence.

Baroness Mallalieu: There is a major difference, which the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, will recognise, between somebody who is detained without having been charged and then can apply for bail, and somebody who is detained not knowing the nature of the allegation against them. I take that to be a major distinction and at the core of what we are talking about here.
	Just before I rose to speak, I noticed the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, straining like a greyhound in the slips, and I am sure that he will speak shortly on this matter because he has done so most eloquently both in this Chamber and in the media.
	These proposals are wholly unnecessary because the CPS has changed the basis on which most terrorist suspects are charged. We have already had some indication of it from others, but perhaps I may spell it out: most criminal charges are brought only if the prosecuting authority considers that, on the evidence currently available to it, there is a greater than 50 per cent chance of a successful prosecution. That decision must be made within 14 days of detention, except in terrorist cases, where, as a result of the earlier legislation which this Chamber passed with the assistance of the noble Lord, the authorities have 28 days to make the decision. However, the Crown Prosecution Service has adopted a different basis of charge in the majority of terrorist cases and now uses what it calls the threshold test, which permits a detainee to be charged where the evidence to show a greater than 50 per cent prospect of conviction is not yet available but the authorities on reasonable grounds believe that it will be available before trial, and where they believe that the suspect, if released, would be a danger to the public. In practice, therefore, the time available to the police and the Crown Prosecution Service is not 14, 28 or 90 days—it is the whole of the period up to trial, which is commonly a year to 18 months. During that time, investigations can and do continue and evidence can be served on the defence right up to the end of the presentation of the prosecution case in court. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, said at Second Reading,
	"there is no need for an artificial deadline".—[Official Report, 8/7/08; col. 645.]
	I am bound to say that I wonder what on earth we are doing here. It is very hard to see whether there is some perceived political gain—I hope that that is not the reason—or whether somebody is afraid of backing down for fear of appearing weak. I hope that that is not the case either.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: I always have the utmost respect for my noble friend's arguments. Would she not agree that the time that is needed to investigate the complexity of future terrorist plans may be virtually as long as she has said it takes to go to trial? This is a matter of life against death, and the threat of death involving computers and their operations may be such that the investigation may require—that is all that is being said—a very long period indeed.

Baroness Mallalieu: I totally accept that, but I believe that that period is currently available and practice is showing that that is exactly what is happening. But what I believe we are being asked to do in this Committee today is to destroy some important principles underpinning our freedoms, which are under threat here for no good reason. Whichever side of the Chamber one sits on, I believe that this is one of those occasions when we all need to say "Stop", and say it loudly.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I remind the Committee—

The Earl of Onslow: As part of the JCHR—

Noble Lords: Carlile!

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I remind the Committee at the outset of my remarks of my interest in this matter as independent reviewer of the Terrorism Act 2000 and of other statutory provisions. The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, who has just spoken, knows my very considerable regard for her, both as a Member of this Chamber and a lawyer. She, I am sure, will accept that although I disagree with her on this occasion we are aiming at exactly the same end—the same free society, in which the same people, the general citizenry of this country, can move about freely and without danger to their lives, while at the same time protecting individuals who may be wrongly accused from arbitrary action by the state. That is the difficult balance that we are trying to sustain in this debate and many others under the counterterrorism laws.
	I did not speak at Second Reading because I was absent abroad as independent reviewer, for which I apologise. I am anxious not to abuse my position as independent reviewer by repeated speeches and will not do so; this may well be the only speech that I make in Committee, but I feel that I must set out my views on this important subject. I should add that I have a self-denying ordinance never to vote on these subjects, because I regard it as taking too much advantage of my position.
	Consistency is not always a virtue, but I have remained consistent, publicly and privately, on these issues throughout recent times. Of course, I recognise—and I remind the Committee—that my opinion is but one among many, albeit one that is briefed and refreshed, if necessary, on a daily basis, and which I try to keep up to date. I shall try to assist your Lordships, or those at least who may possibly still be open-minded about this issue, of whom I am sure there are a great many, by setting out my views and judgment on the matter. If it is rejected, so be it.
	Not a day has passed since this proposal was first made without my debating it in my own mind, taking into account the views of the many who are opposed to my opinion on this matter and whose opinions I respect. I acknowledge that for many this issue is difficult because their knowledge of changing terrorism issues and the changing picture will not necessarily be up to date. I value this debate. It is healthy for our law and democracy that serious people can disagree seriously about serious issues, as long as we keep it at that level of seriousness, which has not always been the case.
	As a lifelong Liberal—I choose that word with great care and the largest "L" that I can find—it is uncomfortable to disagree with those with whom I would instinctively expect to agree. It would be so much easier if I could wake up in the morning and turn to my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, whom I have known since 1971 as a very close colleague, and say, "Martin, you are right". Life would be so much simpler. But I fear that some of the arguments that I have heard—not today but in earlier debates on this subject, in and out of this House and the other place—must be disposed of because they are disqualified from serious debate. After Second Reading, I heard one Member of this House say, "No serious person could ever support these proposals". I disqualify that on the grounds of arrogance. I have heard it said that this is a disaster for civil liberties. For reasons that I shall illustrate, I disqualify that on the grounds of disproportionality and loose logic.
	I have heard it said that this is a breach of Magna Carta. I disqualify that on the grounds of misrepresentation and over-reliance on a document that, although of its time, by today's values is sexist and racist. I would expect Liberty to be marching in the streets against it. It proposes a situation that is far worse—

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Does my noble friend accept that the European Convention on Human Rights might be a better standard these days than Magna Carta?

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I absolutely agree with my noble friend. Later, I shall say that in my view these proposals are within the European Convention on Human Rights. I welcome his intervention.
	The next argument that I disqualify—and there is a shameful advertisement by Liberty in today's Guardian—is that we propose a situation far worse than that in the United States, France and other comparable countries. Does anyone in this House really believe that charging someone with association de malfaiteurs is an adequate basis for keeping people in custody for a year and longer? I do not. Does anyone in this House believe that the French system of arresting people, not informing their lawyers and interviewing them without a tape recording is a proper basis for interrogation? A leading French juge d'instruction smiled when he described it to me as—I will not attempt to imitate his accent—"a very productive period of interrogation, monsieur".
	As for the United States of America, the noble Lord, Lord Dear—I say this to him with great respect—misrepresented the position in a country in which at least one citizen has been deprived of his citizenship rights and has been kept in custody for years, and where executive witness detention—not executive defendant detention—can keep people in custody for up to a year at a time. Let us make fair comparisons. I am always willing to meet fair comparisons, but not the traducing comparisons that we sometimes see.
	I have also heard it said that those of us who broadly support this proposal are proposing internment. I wrote a report on the definition of terrorism and studied every terrorism law in the known world. I have looked at the history of internment over the past 70 years. Perhaps I can simply dispose of that argument by saying that I hope that everyone in this House, including those who have looked at the most recent record of internment in this country, shares Churchill's description of internment as,
	"in the highest degree odious".
	I shall now explain why, with one significant misgiving, I support the proposal that we are debating. I have five main reasons. The first is the range and complexity of the risk that we face, which is changing all the time. The risks of violent jihadist terrorism that we face now come from many places and countries. Some are domestic and home grown. Terrorism of that kind threatens places of mass public aggregation in this country—for example, the safety of our children as they get on the bus to go to school in central London, or young people around the country who gather in, if your Lordships will forgive the old-fashioned expression, a dance hall to enjoy themselves.
	However, the risk of terrorism is now potentially far more pervasive. Terrorism potentially involving al-Qaeda supporters now spreads anywhere in the world. It includes, for example, a significant threat—noble Lords should listen carefully to this because it is true—to humanitarian efforts in what is sometimes called the "deep field". Aid and development are seen as support for apostate regimes, hence the attack of 11 December 2007 on the United Nations headquarters in Algiers. All this is planned in an extremely complex international network, part of which is likely to be in this country and will be very difficult to unravel.
	The manifestations of terrorism around the world now include piracy in the Horn of Africa—on which the French Government have been rather firmer than the United Kingdom Government—and franchised al-Qaeda activities, as they are sometimes called, in north Africa, with global planning connections. It is now clear that most al-Qaeda networks have some element of contact between them. The word "unravelling" is entirely apposite to the kind of evidence that the authorities may have to deal with after arrest. In addition it has to be said, recognising what is happening in Pakistan, that the less than stable new Government of Pakistan are thought by many experts to represent an increased and significant security threat not just in Pakistan but to Europe and to its citizens in their own countries.
	The final point about risk is serious; it is about regeneration. There is evidence, which I think that those who are expert in the field and fully up to date will recognise, that some networks have regenerated themselves repeatedly after disruption. It is important to be able to penetrate the evidence about such networks in order to prevent regeneration.
	I turn next to evidential challenge. We have already heard something in this debate about computers, and a noble Lord opposite helpfully intervened to point out how complex these cases can be. As has already been said, the risks of which I have spoken are posed by determined and often clever people. Al-Qaeda will be listening to every word of this debate to see how much quarter is given by this Parliament. It is sometimes thought that its ideas cross the world at high speed, and they do. But the problem is that its ideas cross the world not only at very high speed but at very slow speed, too—on foot, on ships, on planes. It is difficult for the authorities to bring together those strands of plotting that put the public at risk. It is, as has been said, highly trained in counter-intelligence, and it is learning all the time. It would be unwise in a debate such as this one to describe what it knows or to speculate what it does not know, but it does not require much imagination. One problem with an evidential challenge is that its desire to succeed is driven by a religious imperative, albeit a heretical one, in which reason can disappear into the long grass.
	As has been said, making the linkages of evidence can be painstaking. We need to have appropriate and fair means to avoid releasing prematurely those who are determined to regenerate their activity and who will set out to achieve their ends come what may. Without going into detail, there really is evidence of that.
	The potential for damage can be stated in a few words: deaths between the tens and the thousands, with the numbers likely to be increased by suicide bombing. The authorities in this country have been fantastically successful in disrupting this activity. Putting it at its lowest, many hundreds of lives have been saved by them through such disruptions. The maximum of an extra 12 days, controlled as it would be, could in my view assist those disruptions.
	The enduring integrity of the law is very important to me. The one thing I dread is a horrendous event in which an airplane or a huge bomb is driven into a crowd of thousands, resulting in a huge number of deaths. We can imagine the headlines the following day. We can imagine the understandable reaction in the elected House. There would also be a very strong reaction in this House, although it would undoubtedly be more measured. I want to see an end to the constant introduction of new counterterrorism law. I want us to have a counterterrorism law that we can consolidate, and I mean consolidate formally if at all possible—a codified, robust counterterrorism law which is good enough to endure, and which would endure a massive atrocity. If, heaven help us, such an atrocity takes place, I want to be able to stand up as independent reviewer and say to the Minister, as he faces pressure from his own Back-Benches in both Houses, "We need no more because we've done the job already".
	We have heard it said that we are talking about the thin end of the wedge, but I see no such argument here. I see finality in the law of detention with appropriate protection from the judges. I say to my noble friend Lord Lester that one needs only to look at what the judges have done in relation to counterterrorism law to see the level of protection that they give. I spend a lot of time talking to officials in the Home Office and a few judicial names trip off their tongues on a daily basis, knowing that they face being tested on that daily basis by those judges. I cite as an example a case at first instance, not an appellate case, R (I) v City of Westminster Magistrates' Court and the Chief Constable of Manchester Police, decided on 28 August this year by Mr Justice Collins, as one of many examples of the courts being robust in testing the law, but saying that it complies with the European Convention on Human Rights. I believe there is no real evidence that it does not comply with the European Convention.
	We should also bear in mind that we have been here before. The noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, chaired a committee of Privy Counsellors some years ago. I apologise for taking so much of the Committee's time, but I feel that I should speak once. The Newton committee spoke of giving the judges more inquisitorial power. That is exactly what we have done.
	As regards proportionality, how many people are these new proposals likely to affect adversely? Let us assume that the overall effect is adverse in terms of keeping people in custody. I believe that these laws might affect a maximum of five or six people in the next four or five years. This is not the end of civil liberties as we know them. They could save many lives at home and abroad, including those of people in the humanitarian camps which the United Nations and other bodies maintain abroad. I believe, in fact, that these laws could have the effect of reducing the detention periods of some people. It is undoubtedly the case that judicial rigour would be strengthened as a result of these enactments, and I would expect the judges, in an increasingly inquisitorial role, to keep detention to a minimum.
	I turn finally to my misgivings. I have real misgivings about the parliamentary role as set out in the Bill. I do not believe that the parliamentary part of this adds anything useful whatever to the provisions. It does not make them better; it does not make them worse; it does not make them safer and it does not make them less safe. They are a fig leaf. In my view, nothing would be lost if it simply disappeared from the Bill.

Viscount Bledisloe: Will the noble Lord permit me to intervene to ask two questions? He said that he wants to see finality and consolidation. Is he really saying that 42 days is so wonderful that it will solve the problems for all time? Is he further saying that the enormously complicated system in the Bill—perhaps with the removal of the point about Parliament that he has just referred to—is a system onto which we wish to consolidate for all time?

Lord Carlile of Berriew: The answer to the first question is no, any more than Magna Carta is valid now as it was in 1215, but, in my view, it will do for a very long time. The answer to the second question is also no.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: The noble Lord has given a very dire warning to this Committee. In the light of what he has said, and in the light of the numbers, which we all know in this Committee, does he fear that he will suffer the same fate as Cassandra?

Lord Carlile of Berriew: The noble Lord and I have been around in Welsh politics together for a very long time, and Cassandra is an honorary Welshwoman. We shall have to wait and see; I hope that there are not snakes coming from my tongue at this moment.
	This is not my Government. If I thought that the Government were wrong, as I have on many occasions, I would immediately be critical of them. I have criticised many things in counterterrorism law. There is the use of the word "glorifying" as part of a criminal charge, which frankly I deprecate; the long duration of some control orders, which makes me extremely uncomfortable; and the excessive use, in the tens of thousands, of stop and search without suspicion. I am concerned about the inquest proposals as they stand and I am sympathetic to the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in relation to post-charge questioning, which is no quick fix and is actually quite a tricky proposal that may need further detailed consideration.
	On this proposal, the chorus of disapproval is misdirected. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, that, if necessary, I am prepared to stand with her on the barricades. We could be the last man and woman standing to preserve civil liberties in this country, even if we have a slightly different view of the balance. The way in which she presented the threat, as she would have it, to the balance, is misdirected.
	Before I sit down, I shall refer briefly to the threshold test, the effect of which is to charge people on a lower standard and keep them in custody for months, if not years. How is that more civil-liberties compatible than a maximum additional detention period of 14 days, subject to these safeguards?

Lord Elton: Before the noble Lord sits down, it is important that lay Members of the Committee understand this as well as legal Members. I have not heard the noble Lord reply to the comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, that under the existing law it is possible to continue looking for evidence until the minute before the trial.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I thought that I had just replied to that point. My point is that if you charge people by a lower standard than is normal, the threshold test, you can keep them in custody for as long as you like. Of course they can make a bail application, but even the noble Baroness, with her persuasive skills, would have trouble persuading a judge at the Old Bailey that someone charged under the threshold test with a serious terrorism offence should have bail. The chances are that they would remain in custody for a multiplier of the extra 14 days maximum allowed by the Bill.
	That is what I think, what I believe and what I advise. I hope that it will have been of some value in this debate. I apologise for taking so much time.

The Earl of Onslow: I have the privilege of being a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which is extremely ably chaired by a Labour Member of another place. My colleagues in this House are the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, the noble Lord, Lord Lester, my noble friend Lord Bowness, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon. The JCHR has published 13 reports on this issue. Unlike on one or two other occasions, it has been absolutely solid, like the shield wall at Thermopylae—although on this occasion there was no Theban shepherd to take the Persians around the back. We have been unanimous and strong in saying that 42 days is unnecessary.
	It is interesting that the amendment has not been moved by the normal gang of civil libertarians, such as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, or myself, but by "serious plod" and "serious Bond girl". They are serious people who are not mucking about; they know exactly what the threat is and see no need for this extension. The noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, made a totally non-controversial speech at Second Reading and said the extension was unnecessary. The Director of Public Prosecutions says it is unnecessary. In a minute, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, will say it is unnecessary. He did not say that last time, when he said that 90 days was necessary. One is entitled to say that there is great joy in heaven when one sinner repenteth. The noble Lord, Lord West, agreed, too, until he was kneecapped by the Prime Minister at a breakfast meeting before going on the wireless.
	As I have said, our committee published 13 reports on this issue, all of which have said the same thing. Since the most recent report, there has been opposition from the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE), the United Nations Human Rights Committee, and the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture—

Lord Tomlinson: I remind the noble Earl that the Parliamentary Committee of the Council of Europe has done no such thing. I was heavily involved in the debate in the Legal Affairs Committee at the Council of Europe and in the debate in the plenary session the week before last. It produced a draft report, and the noble Earl should look at the only conclusion in that draft report.

The Earl of Onslow: I have here a reference assembled by our legal adviser at the JCHR, and your Lordships can judge whether the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson is right—

Noble Lords: No!

The Earl of Onslow: Perhaps he was asleep, I do not know. I have the reference here in the JCHR report.

Lord Tomlinson: I actually put the resolution. You are wrong.

The Earl of Onslow: Even the UN Human Rights Committee and the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture commented adversely on the proposal. PACE states that 42 days are incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Her Majesty's Government have said that there is a growing threat of terrorism that is greater than last year. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, produced a string of horrible possibilities, all of which we accept. We do not disagree that those possibilities are there. We have asked the Home Secretary several times, "Please can you give us evidence that the threat has grown?" and answer came there none. In December last year, we wrote to Jonathan Evans, the director-general of the Security Service, and he has not even bothered to answer the letter.
	The use of the 28-day period has already been referred to. In the past year, no one has been detained for more than 14 days and before that very few people were detained beyond 14 days. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, set out with great eloquence and accuracy exactly what has happened to people under the 28-day period. Therefore, there is no need to extend the period because there is no increased threat.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I refer the noble Earl to the speech made publicly by the head of the Security Service, MI5, about the huge increase in the threat. In addition, we have doubled the number of people working for the security services. Why would we do that if there were not an increased threat? What the noble Earl said just now is manifestly wrong, as were all his previous remarks.

The Earl of Onslow: I shall stick by the evidence that we heard in the Joint Committee on Human Rights and by the unanimous agreement of my colleagues that what I say is accurate. I reiterate that we have asked the Home Secretary several times for evidence of an increased threat and she has not given any.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: What kind of evidence does the noble Earl wish to have? Does he want an affidavit from Osama bin Laden that he will send a bomb in 41 days? What kind of evidence would he accept? Perhaps he would describe what he is looking for.

The Earl of Onslow: It is not for me to accept the evidence; it is for the Government, when they make a statement saying that the threat has increased, to give the evidence that it has, and they have not given any for me to accept or not accept. It is all right for noble Lords to witter on over there saying that they disagree with me—I know that they do—but I am telling the Committee what we heard in the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and all of us in the Joint Committee will agree with that.
	I come to the matter of parliamentary scrutiny. It is worth reading out what tests have to be applied. They are,
	"to obtain relevant evidence, whether by questioning him or otherwise ... to preserve relevant evidence, or ... pending the result of an examination or analysis of any such evidence or of anything the examination or analysis of which is to be or is being carried out with a view to obtaining such evidence ... to obtain, whether by questioning or otherwise, evidence".
	Those are all questions that have to be asked by a court and by judges. They cannot be debated in Parliament because the moment they are, there will be interference in the due process of law when the chap comes up for trial. The result will be not a conviction but the release of someone because of interference by Parliament. Is that what the noble Lord wants? It is not what I want. I want the person who is guilty of an offence to be charged, locked up and sent away for a long time. That is right and proper, and it is the way that I hope we do things in this country.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: Is my noble friend addressing your Lordships on behalf of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and, if he is, has he any authority to do so?

The Earl of Onslow: I am addressing your Lordships on the part of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. We all agreed that I should make this speech—at least, that is what I assumed and it is what the Clerk said—and, in any case, I am précising the JCHR's report for your Lordships.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I am sure that the noble Earl would agree that each Member of the Committee must speak for himself.

The Earl of Onslow: Of course I agree with that.

Baroness Manningham-Buller: I hear the noble Earl's comment that my successor did not reply to his letter. I say merely that just because the Joint Committee on Human Rights has not seen what it would like by way of evidence of or intelligence on the increased threat does not mean that such a threat does not exist and has increased.

The Earl of Onslow: I have been saying that we asked for evidence and have not had it. Of course, the successor of the noble Baroness does not have to reply in detail to what we ask. I accept that, but he could have said, "I am very sorry, I cannot answer your letter". Not to reply to a parliamentary Joint Committee seems odd.
	We have been through the lack of evidence and the inability of Parliament to supervise properly, so I hope that with a resounding majority your Lordships will reject this ill thought-out and bad proposal.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: If I thought that this provision for 42 days would make any difference in the fight against terrorism I would unhesitatingly support it. I agree completely with what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, said about the level and nature of the threat. The speech of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, although delivered in good part, did not have the ring of authority that the intervention of the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, had. We should not treat the situation as being one in which you have to prove the level of the threat.
	I approach the debate on the following basis: there is a very substantial threat that is a danger to the whole community and, if extending the number of days would assist in bringing terrorists to justice, we should do it. Unfortunately I do not accept that proposition. I accept what has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, and the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, both of whose speeches were excellent—although I disagree with the final conclusion of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile—about a huge amount of work having to be done involving the computers, the foreign element, and making intelligence into evidence that can be produced in court. Anyone who has been involved in these cases, such as the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy and Lady Mallalieu, and the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has seen the piles of paper reflecting the huge amount of work. The critical point was made by my noble friend Lady Mallalieu—that we have recognised that you cannot possibly get that material together in 14, 28 or even 90 days. I supported both privately and publicly the increase to 90 days because I believed that the computer problems, the international problems and the fact that you had to arrest early for fear that people might be killed if you did not do so justified the extension to give the intelligence services, the police and prosecutors as much time as possible in which to construct a case.
	That proposition was rejected. What happened subsequently? A pre-existing provision in the prosecutor's code—the threshold test, which my noble friend Lady Mallalieu described—allows you to bring charges when you have a reasonable suspicion and a likelihood that you will get the evidence within a reasonable time. As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said, the basis on which it operates has changed in practice. That has worked. I listened incredibly carefully to what he said, because I hold him in the greatest respect, and he also has the knowledge, having been the independent reviewer. If he had said, "Well, I don't think it would work", I would have been influenced by that. Instead, he railed against the threshold test. He said that it is a bad thing. It may be a bad or a good thing, but it is there. It is the law that prosecutors currently operate. The idea that extending it from 28 days to 42 days is going to make a difference is utterly fanciful.
	I have read the Home Office's documents very carefully to seek to justify the extension from 28 to 42 days. The Home Office accepts that the threshold test is now used extensively in terrorist cases and that where there is a reasonable suspicion and a likelihood of getting the evidence it is not necessary to have a 51 per cent chance. However, it says that there is a gap when it might not be possible to get the evidence "within a reasonable time". I have thought very carefully about what that could mean. Are there judges in this country who, when they are told that the evidence could be obtained over the next six months, will be influenced by the fact, and say that if you had had 14 days more they might allow the prosecution to continue? It is utter nonsense.
	I have experience of working with the Home Office, and I have the greatest possible admiration for Home Office officials. They write with great clarity, and if that is the best they can do to defend 42 days, it is clear—just as it was clear from the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, when, instead of saying that the threshold test does not work, he railed against it—that we do not need this extension from 28 to 42 days. Therefore, with a heavy heart, because I am utterly sympathetic to the Government's fight against terrorism and I completely agree with the analysis made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, of how big the threat is, I say that there is no benefit in this. It does not help at all. With a heavy heart, I am going to vote against the Government.

Lord Harris of Haringey: My noble and learned friend speaks with as much facility as Home Office officials draft their responses. I have spoken to senior police officers, and surely the point about the threshold test is that it is necessary to demonstrate that you reasonably expect evidence to appear. If you are still wading through masses of computer printouts and masses of data, how can you certify to a court that you reasonably expect that evidence to appear? Therefore, the threshold test does not apply in these circumstances.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: That is nonsense because you can arrest only with a reasonable suspicion, and a reasonable suspicion is sufficient to allow the wait.

Lord Harris of Haringey: But the reasonable suspicion is that somebody has appeared in particular circumstances and is clearly associating. There are clearly issues that require further investigation, but the evidence is going to emerge only by careful analysis of some of the material that has been seized.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: No. The reasonable suspicion is the reasonable suspicion that the person has committed a criminal offence. That is what justifies the continued detention. There is a misunderstanding about what those senior police officers are saying to my noble friend.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: I hope I may at least reduce the temperature by a few degrees. I believe the Committee will already be very familiar with my views on pre-charge detention. I opposed the original increase from seven days to 14 days back in 2003 because it did not seem to me then that the police had made out a case for so large a distinction between terrorist cases and all other cases. I would remind your Lordships that in all other cases, however complex, the maximum is four days—not seven days, not 14 days, not 28 days and not 42 days. Terrorist cases are not the only cases in which the police have to analyse computer records. I opposed the original increase, I opposed the increase from 14 days to 90 days, as it was in the original Bill, and I now oppose the increase from 28 days to 42 days for all the reasons given so eloquently by my noble friend Lord Dear.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: Would not a distinction between the normal limit and this one be that, if one is wrong, the consequences are quite horrific? This is not long firm fraud or a matter of that sort of complexity; multitudes of people could be killed and even more killed as a result, for example, of an al-Qaeda cadre obtaining dirty bombs.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: That is the right question. However, I put back to the noble Lord the sort of harm that can be done by the failure to interrupt, to analyse and to break up an international conspiracy for the importation of hard drugs, which in the long run can, although not as dramatically, cause exactly the same number of casualties.
	For the reasons given by my noble friend Lord Dear and most powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, I oppose the increase to 42 days.
	I wish to make only two points today. The first relates to the basis of the Government's argument for extending the period of detention beyond 28 days, which is that 42 days might not be enough in exceptional circumstances. The trouble with that way of putting the argument is that it has probably given the impression that, in all ordinary circumstances, 28 days is acceptable. I merely remind the noble Lord, Lord West, of assurances that have been given by all his predecessors, including the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, who was in her place earlier, that the norm remains 14 days, not 28 days. I very much hope that the noble Lord, when he comes to reply, will repeat loud and clear that that is the position. It is important because judges, believe it or not, pay attention to what Parliament says. They even pay attention to what Ministers say. It is important that judges, who have the task of deciding whether to extend the time beyond 14 days, should realise that the view of this House is that 14 days, not 28 days, is the norm. I look forward to a further assurance on that point.
	My second point is that Ministers often use the increased threat as a justification for extending pre-charge detention. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has already made that point. However, I see no connection between an increased threat and the length of time a suspect is kept and questioned in police custody. An increased threat, assuming it to be so, is surely justification for increased vigilance on the part of the Security Service, the police and all the others. It might even be justification for increased sentences as a deterrent, but surely an increased threat, assuming that it exists, does not touch on the question that we are discussing: whether the length of pre-charge detention should be extended. Surely it cannot be the government case that extending the length of pre-charge detention will act as a deterrent. Indeed, exactly the opposite must surely be the case; so far from being a deterrent, it is a step that is positively inflammatory—the word used by my noble friend Lord Dear.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord. His argument is as usual very persuasive, except that, in a complex and detailed universal organisation of death to those whose security we in this country are responsible for, is not a longer period needed to investigate the computers and other mechanisms, the languages, the geography and the nature of the threat?

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: The simple answer to that is: if there is a need for more people to analyse computers, let us have more people to do that. But I am not persuaded that that is the case.

Lord Tebbit: I should explain why I intend to support the Government today. I am mildly surprised that so few others, especially on the Benches opposite, seem to want to—

Noble Lords: We—

Lord Tebbit: Yes, and I understand the reasons. First, most of my friends supported indefinite detention without trial in Northern Ireland. Clearly, a matter of 42 days is not an absolute matter of conscience for them. Nor can I understand how conscience or judgment, despite the quite remarkable speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, would allow a man to support a 90-day limit while in office, but not a 42-day limit when out of office.
	There are three substantial, practical objections to what the Government propose: first, the proposal is now so hedged about with conditions that it could verge towards being unworkable, which is a serious consideration for the Government to take in mind; secondly, it is likely to be abused by the Government and would worsen relations with minority communities from which terrorists might come; and, thirdly, it is simply not needed or wanted. As I have said, there is some force to the first objection, but if that is so, the Government can come back in a year's time to improve those procedures. On the second point, the Government have, certainly at times, tended to misuse anti-terrorism laws for other purposes, but I do not see even this Government sweeping up and detaining people with no cause whatever—other, perhaps, than that they might be Muslims or something of that kind—and holding them for 42 days without good cause before releasing them just for the fun of it. I simply do not believe that that is likely to happen. Nor do I believe that moderate Muslim opinion in this country would be inflamed by the fact that we have taken these measures against terrorism—not against Islam, but against terrorism. That is the most important point we have to get across. Because this legislation is subject to review, it is possible for us to strike it down in the future.
	What is the positive case for the Government's proposals? There is no doubt that tracking down the evidence against a suspect from computer discs and hard drives—possibly using encryption and foreign languages—across continents and requiring the co-operation of foreign intelligence agencies can take time. It has been suggested that those things can take time against other criminal acts. Of course they can, but there are moments when the police are in a position where they have to decide whether to make an arrest to prevent the commission of a crime before they have begun to amass the kind of evidence that could be put to court in a prosecution. If that crime is a bank robbery—ça va. A bank robbery is a very bad thing, but a terrorist crime, as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, pointed out, could be a much more terrible thing.
	We have to agree that it is undesirable that even a single individual should be unjustly treated or detained, which might happen under any circumstances, whether the time period is 7, 14, 28 or 42 days. But we have to consider what is in the other balance of the scale; that is, what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, called proportionality. If the lack of this provision causes the police to fail to prevent a major terrorist outrage, what then? It might mean multiple fatalities, a strike against economically important infrastructure with great consequences, or it might mean that we fail to prevent an outrage as great as the detonation of a dirty nuclear device in a city centre, leaving it uninhabitable for years. We have to take into account that things are changing, that what was unforeseeable a while ago has become terribly foreseeable in terms of the world economy. What was also unforeseeable a while ago is that there is a very weak and potentially bankrupt Government in Pakistan, a country which is a nuclear power with all the dangers that that may bring to us. The weights in the scales are simply disproportionate.
	It is very difficult indeed to rectify the injustice which has been done to a dead terrorist victim. Victims have human rights just as much as suspects. Finally, I should say to my noble friends on the Front Bench—to whom it will come as no surprise that I am going to support the Government today—that I do so for one other reason. Let us think about the dilemma if the Government are denied these powers tonight, but at some time in the future a Conservative Administration conclude that they need them. How would that Administration go about coming back to Parliament and asking it to grant those powers? My party might come to rue the day if it wins this vote. So although I find myself in strange company—not least in the company of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, with whom, as he well knows, I do not always agree, and with many Peers on the opposite side of the Chamber with whom I do not often agree—when I vote with the Government tonight it is partly with the thought of protecting my friends in my party from the position in which they may find themselves if they are in government in the reasonably near future.

Noble Lords: Lord Morris!

Lord Judd: I rise—

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: I rise—

Lord Brett: I think it is the Liberals' turn now.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: It is a great pleasure to follow in the wake of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit. He and his family of course have suffered as much from the barbarity of terrorism as anyone He speaks with great passion and authority, and I respect what he has said. I think that there is no dispute among us that the threat of terrorism is extremely serious.
	As the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, pointed out in her intervention, we do not need further evidence of the fact that the threat of terrorism is extremely serious, and those of us who are in favour of this amendment need no lectures about it. We all appreciate the very serious threat of terrorism. If we thought that an extension of the power to detain without trial from 14 to 28 days, and then from 28 to 42—or from 42 to 90, or from 90 to, as far as I can understand those on the other side, an indefinite period—would actually cope with the problem, then we might need to reconsider it. As a liberally minded person I believe that the spirit of liberty is the spirit that is not too sure that it is right. Indeed, I say to my noble friend Lord Carlile of Berriew that I hope that, as a Liberal, he shares that uncertainty and not the dogmatism on this question.
	We all agree that the threat is very serious, but the question is whether the means being proposed by the Government are going to be effective. What we have not heard is evidence from anyone that the extension from 28 days to 42 days is necessary. That is the evidence that the Joint Committee on Human Rights was concerned to discover. None has been forthcoming.
	In considering the question which is now before us, it is important to consider the reputation of this country throughout the world for the effective protection of human rights and upholding the rule of law. The noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, was a member of the parliamentary assembly that discussed this issue and passed a resolution which is summarised, as the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, said, in the Joint Committee on Human Rights report. For those who want to read the summary of resolution 1634, it is on page 9 of the report. It sets out the substantial objections to what the Government are now proposing.
	The situation is well summarised in the series of reports by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which explains why we unanimously, from all parties and beyond, consider the proposed extension to be wrong in principle and unjustified in practice; why it lacks a sense of proportion; and why there are alternative adequate means of tackling the problem. It is unnecessary to bore the Committee with the detail; it is all in our reports. The proposal stains the good reputation of the Government and the UK in the wider world in upholding the rule of law and ensuring respect for human rights.
	In his trenchant article in today's Guardian, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, explained that he could not be here, but in summarising his view, he summed up the position for me. What he termed "this pernicious provision" is,
	"not only unnecessary but also counterproductive; and we should fight to protect the liberties the terrorists would take from us, not destroy them ourselves".
	The noble and learned Lord pointed out, as is the case, that the proposal,
	"has been rejected by two former directors of MI5; the experience of prosecutors is that 28 days is sufficient; it has been condemned by former ... lord chancellors"—
	including, of course, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton—
	"and by senior police officers".
	With great respect, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has not provided any evidence to suggest that they are wrong, nor has he answered the detailed reasons by the Joint Committee, nor has he explained why the lawyers who have advised throughout are wrong in saying that this would lead to serious violations of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Lord Clinton-Davis: Is there not a difference of view between police officers? Some support what the Opposition are saying and some oppose it. Is the noble Lord rejecting altogether the advice of those police officers who say that the Government are quite right in what they are proposing?

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I am not rejecting anything at all. Of course reasonable people may disagree about the appropriate means in the difficult situations that we are discussing. Of course it is right that different police officers will take a different view. We understand that even the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, took a different view until he was persuaded to the contrary. That is a perfectly sensible approach in life.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: Does the noble Lord agree that the 30th report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights proposes amendments whereby this Bill could be brought into accord with the European convention? That is a most valuable contribution to the debate, which he now appears to be denying.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I think that the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, misunderstands. Our report firmly opposes the extension from 28 to 42 days for the reasons it explains. It then goes on to seek further safeguards whether or not there is an extension to 42 days, dealing with matters such as derogation, post-charge questioning and so on. Some of that is designed to make prosecutions and evidence-gathering more effective in order that terrorists may be brought to book. We are not unrealistic or part of an irresponsible lobby; instead, we are seeking to deal with a serious problem by appropriate means.

Lord Sewel: What about derogation?

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I shall not go into derogation at this stage. It is not relevant.

Lord Sewel: Will the noble Lord help me regarding the incompatibility of these proposals with the European Convention on Human Rights, which seems to rest primarily on the number of days? If that is the case, why is it that in Perugia—in a totally different, but European, member state—two people are being held in relation to a murder that was committed very nearly a year ago? They have been held without charge for that period. I understand that there are two different approaches—the investigatory and the accusatory or confrontational—but to the lay person that seems to be a very thin justification. The point is that in other states covered by the convention, there are nevertheless people who are held in detention without charge for periods greatly in excess of 42 days.

Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws: May I correct my noble friend? In the Italian case to which he refers, they have been charged.

Lord Sewel: How long ago?

Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws: They were charged within quite a short period of time.

Lord Sewel: With what crimes?

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I do not know whether the procedures of the Committee envisage such arguments. May I conclude by trying to deal with the point of the noble Lord, Lord Sewel?
	There is a significant difference between post-charge and pre-charge detention, and that is the difference with which we are concerned. It is not an academic difference; once one has been charged and is being detained, as is the case on the Continent as well as here, a different set of safeguards arises. The noble Lord is perfectly right that in some of the continental systems, people are detained for very long periods after they have been charged. The same, of course, is true here. The question is whether pre-charge detention periods should be extended.
	The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, referred, quite correctly, to internment in Northern Ireland. That was a classic example of detention indefinitely without charge. To those noble Lords who say that the threat of terrorism is so appalling that we must do anything to counter it, logically their position is—or should be—in favour of internment, without any time limits, until the evidence has been forthcoming. That is what, at the height of the Second World War, Winston Churchill described as,
	"in the highest degree odious",
	and I think he was right. We are now facing a serious threat, but no greater than when we were fighting the Nazis in the Second World War. That is why this Committee has a peculiar responsibility today to strike a fair balance, as has been said, between the need to protect the lives of our people against a serious threat of terrorism and the need to uphold our tradition as a country which respects the rule of law.
	I have come to the conclusion, even after listening with an open mind to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, that that Government have made a classic mistake. The Minister is a distinguished Navy man; perhaps he will forgive me for making a comment as an Army man. I was taught in the Army that it is a classic mistake to dig a trench, to be flushed out of it, to dig another trench, be flushed out of that, and then to be on the run. I believe that that is exactly the Government's position: they dug a trench which was indefensible; they were flushed out of it on the question of 90 days; and now they are trying to defend 42 days without, I believe, any objective justification for doing so. I very much hope that this evening's debate will be the second mutiny at Spithead, but that this one will have a better and quicker resolution.

Lord Imbert: Although I have heard much genuine concern about the human rights of suspects, as is right, commendable and essential, I have not heard enough concern about the human rights of victims and, just as important, potential victims—those who are yet to lose their lives or their legs, arms, sight or hearing.
	I have been in contact with three of the senior officers who, following the 7 July 2005 terrorist attacks, were responsible for supervising the rescue operations and collection of evidence, which included the ghastly task of retrieval of body parts from trees, railway tracks and gutters. One of these officers has forwarded to me 17 foolscap sheets giving particulars of those who have no human rights at all, as they are all dead. He sent more pages giving details of the dreadful injuries to others, one of whom is a young woman who, some might argue, theoretically retains her human rights. The pity is, however, that she has no legs and, as for others who lost eyes, limbs and internal organs, that is how she will spend the rest of her life. Nothing became any better after 28 or 42 days; the pain and suffering get worse. These are the people about whose human rights I also care.
	I do not accept the argument that I have heard noble Lords making that asking for an extension of maybe just hours beyond the present 28-day limit of detention would be a recruiting sergeant for al-Qaeda. The recruiting sergeant for al-Qaeda was the invasion of an Islamic country by the USA and Britain and the fact that our troops are still in occupation. However, I concede that, if we continue to talk about 42 days' detention before charge as though it were the norm and not an exception, that will both confuse and help to radicalise some impressionable young Muslims.
	It is a pity in many ways that this is a government Bill, as that certainly seems to have united the opposition to it. It is also unhelpful that the "42 days" epithet has, I believe, confused many people. Even some police officers who have not studied the Bill have been persuaded that, if a person suspected of a terrorist offence were arrested, that person could be detained for up to 42 days. That, of course, is totally incorrect.
	The police did not ask for any magic figure of 42 days to be included in the Bill. The extension in the most exceptional of circumstances could be for just 24 hours or perhaps for two days. However, it seems that in an effort to make any extension more acceptable the Government chose to limit that to an absolute maximum of 42 days. Therein came the opportunity to confuse; it has been a classic "shooting oneself in the foot" job.
	The senior police officers to whom I have spoken have assured me that the proposal for 42 days was not made at their request. They are as aware of the civil rights of suspects as they are of those of past and possibly future victims and they will work to the best of their abilities within whatever parameters Parliament sets. None the less, Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick, the senior officer responsible for the counterterrorism command at New Scotland Yard, his predecessor, Assistant Commissioner Hayman, and the latter's operational deputy assistant commissioner, Peter Clarke, are firmly of the view that the time is coming when, because of the most horrific possibilities of a terrorist attack aimed at achieving maximum deaths and casualties, an extension to the present 28-day limit of detention before charge is most likely to be necessary. However, I concede that Andy Hayman was concerned, as my noble friend Lord Dear said, about the bureaucratic system that would have to be employed before such an extension were allowed.
	I am not a politician and admit that I often fail to understand politicians' motives or agendas, so, to prevent my falling into the same trap as one of my successors as Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police seems to have done, perhaps I should declare that my support for much of this Bill is not political, and I believe that public protection should rank much higher than political opportunism.
	I was a working policeman for 40 years, and I believe that I was invited to become a Member of Your Lordships' House to use my years of operational experience to highlight the practical difficulties that some legislation might pose to those whom we expect to keep us safe from the criminal and the terrorist. I believe that it was known that I could bring a wealth of practical, feet-on-the-ground experience to Your Lordships' discussions and that, having left the field of play, I would not indulge myself by standing on the touchline and chucking intellectual toilet rolls into the goalmouth.
	I urge noble Lords to consider most carefully before supporting the amendment. Will noble Lords unequivocally support the amendment while not knowing at this stage what the exceptional circumstances might be—perchance a plot to assassinate the Queen, or to blow up fuel dumps or a fully loaded gasometer situated within yards of a block of council flats? Will they regardless, as in the amendment, say that there can never be an extension? I make it clear that I am not advocating 42 days, but there must be provision for a properly supervised extension when the most exceptional circumstances prevail. To agree to the amendment could be dangerous and might in time lead to the further loss of lives.

Lord Howarth of Newport: Osama bin Laden and his disciples could not have made it plainer that they are at war against us. Their methods of warfare include a peculiarly ruthless terrorism whereby people who willingly embrace their own deaths attempt to kill maximum numbers of unsuspecting civilians. They also seek to disrupt and undermine our lives by any means possible. They operate with technical virtuosity across the globe, using sophisticated telecommunications and computing, with layers of encryption and in obscure languages. They operate powerful propaganda systems through the internet. They are not susceptible to reason, argument or negotiation. They are patient. They are implacable. They will use the most powerful weapons that they can obtain. Bin Laden has decreed that:
	"It is the duty of Muslims to prepare as much force as possible to terrorise the enemies of God".
	If they think, as they well may, that western hegemony is now on the wane, if they detect a weakening of our self-confidence, their contempt for us and their determination will be intensified. They cannot be deterred except by being found out and disrupted. They cannot be defeated by traditional means. I am sorry if all this sounds melodramatic, but I learnt, during four years of serving on the parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee, that it is the reality.
	Given the vast and increasing complexity of intelligence operations in a time of multiplying computer power and the need to collaborate with agencies in other countries, notably Pakistan, whose speed and reliability may not match our own, we must surely accept that there may come occasions, possibly soon, when an investigation will require that a suspect is held in pre-charge detention for longer than 28 days. It is mere prudence to create a reserve power to extend pre-charge detention for a reasonable additional period. It is better also to legislate for such a contingency in advance, calmly and carefully, than to try to alter the balance between security and liberty following a terrorist outrage in the midst of a crisis. That is what the Government, rightly, seek to do.
	The defence of the realm and of the safety of our people is the most basic responsibility that our Government have. Our commitment to liberty, passionate though it is, is, in extremis, subordinate to that primary duty. Of course, we should not surrender—

Baroness Warsi: I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I presume that he, like everybody else in this Committee, is here with one thing in mind: to protect our country. Having outlined the long list of things that form the threat that we face—and I accept that we face a grave and real risk—would he not accept that the only real and sustainable way in which to deal with this challenge of extremism that we all face is by making sure that the majority of Britain feels that they are part of big-tent Britain? Would he not say that this is not a simple argument between the rights of the victims and human rights of the terrorist? This is an argument about how we have a long-term solution to the challenge of extremism, and locking people up for 42 days will alienate the very communities that we need on board to support us in facing this challenge together.

Lord Howarth of Newport: I agree entirely that, if there is a long-term solution, it has to be though winning hearts and minds—but, in the mean time, we have to defend our people. Of course, we should not surrender more than the minimum necessary of liberty and we should at all times be vigilant on behalf of our liberty, but the balance between liberty and security has always been recalibrated in time of conflict.
	I respect the professional experience and judgment of noble Lords who have been very senior police officers, headed the Security Service, chaired the Joint Intelligence Committee or served in government as Attorney-General or Lord Chancellor. However, I am puzzled as to how they can be confident that, as technology and other complexities develop and we find ourselves in uncharted circumstances, it will never be necessary, in the interest of the safety of the public, to hold anyone in pre-charge detention for more than 28 days. What if, as my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey asked at Second Reading, the police cannot start to question a seriously injured suicide bomber for some time, or it takes some time to make safe for investigators premises where biological or radioactive materials have been kept? When an early arrest is needed in the interest of public protection or when there is more than one plot requiring simultaneous investigation, it may be necessary to hold suspects for longer before charging.
	The call by the Opposition Front Bench and the Joint Committee on Human Rights for evidence of the need to extend pre-charge detention seems unreasonable. You cannot have evidence about what has not yet happened. There can be pointers, however; if we extrapolate past trends, we are assuredly led to conclude that longer periods of investigation before charges are preferred in terrorist cases may be needed.
	We were asked by some noble Lords at Second Reading, and by my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer again today, to accept that the threshold test for charging removes the need to extend pre-charge detention, and to draw comfort from the new provision for post-charge questioning. I am not a lawyer and I may misunderstand them, but I find both those arguments less than satisfactory. I am encouraged to raise these questions by the important speech of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile.
	If investigators do not yet have the admissible evidence to prefer a charge convincingly, how content should we be that a charge is none the less slapped on the suspect to legitimise continuing detention during the search for more evidence? The noble Lord, Lord Dear, suggested that it would be satisfactory to use what he termed "second division" or holding charges. As my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer reminded us, the threshold test requires that there be no more than reasonable suspicion. It may be there and may already be provided for, but that does not make it a good thing. The suspect, after being charged on the basis of a threshold test, can then be detained for months longer—far beyond 42 days. Why is that preferable to the continuation of pre-charge detention up to a maximum of 42 days, authorised by a senior judge who is persuaded that there is sufficient prospect of the fuller evidence needed for a charge being found?

Lord Dear: The whole point about charging the lesser offence first is that detention without trial disappears immediately. The moment that you are charged in those circumstances, you have access to a lawyer, you know what the charge is, you are put before a court and you are in the normal judicial process. Will the noble Lord comment on that?

Lord Howarth of Newport: I remain uneasy about it. It is rather like the French system, which the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, described to us. It makes me decidedly uncomfortable.
	If the Government insist that an adverse inference may be drawn from a suspect's exercising the right to silence under post-charge questioning, how confident can we be that the interests of justice are being served? If that insistence is not maintained, there remains the problem that continued questioning of the suspect in detention fails to secure the balance between defence and prosecution that procedures in a trial are designed to safeguard. Threshold charging and post-charge questioning will no doubt make the need to extend pre-charge detention beyond 28 days rarer, but they are not flawless means to justice. We are in the disagreeable situation in which the means to secure liberty and justice and the means to secure safety are inescapably in tension.
	Like all noble Lords, I do not want Parliament to grant excessive powers to government or their agencies to curtail civil liberties. Our enemies indeed seek to destroy the freedoms that we cherish and that we are proud to claim distinguish our political culture. To overreact to terrorist threats would indeed be to allow our enemies a victory. I agree with that argument. But I do not think that the Government are overreacting in the provision for 42 days.
	The Government have sought strenuously to ensure that civil liberties are protected in this Bill. Contrary to the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, I believe that the safeguards are substantial. The Bill is in no sense a charter for arbitrary government. The Bill would make contingency provision only for the extension of pre-charge detention, which would be exceptional and never routine. The Bill does not allow the Home Secretary to invoke the power other than in circumstances of a "grave exceptional terrorist threat". It does not even allow the Home Secretary to take the initiative to activate the power. The reserve power to extend pre-charge detention beyond 28 days could be activated by the Home Secretary only after she had received a joint report from the DPP and a chief constable setting out reasonable grounds for it in the existing situation. The Home Secretary must then take legal advice to ensure that all the legally prescribed conditions for activating the power have been met. Parliament would have to approve the activation of the power within—now—seven days. The Home Secretary's decision to activate the power would still be subject to judicial review. The Independent Reviewer of Terrorist Legislation, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, would subsequently report to Parliament within six months on the propriety of the Home Secretary's activation and use of the power and Parliament would debate his report. If the reviewer and Parliament found fault with the Home Secretary, the Home Secretary could not survive politically. That is certainly not the "subjective, unfettered discretion" for the Home Secretary that the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, claimed it to be in her speech at Second Reading.
	The Bill also contains powerful safeguards once the power is activated. It would not be for the Home Secretary to commit individuals to detention, but for a judge following application by the DPP to do so. It is not the case, as some seem to suppose, that the Government are demanding that Parliament give the Home Secretary the power to bang up anyone as a suspected terrorist at the suggestion of the spooks and the cops. Just as under existing legislation no individual can be detained beyond 48 hours without the approval of a district judge, and beyond 14 days without the approval of a senior judge, so under this Bill no one could be detained beyond 28 days without the DPP having approved the application being made and a senior judge having authorised the extension of detention. Detention could only be extended at any point after the first 48 hours for up to seven days, and after 14 days, a senior judge would have to approve each period of extension for up to a further seven days. The whole power to extend pre-charge detention beyond 28 days up to 42 days would lapse after a maximum of 60 days from inception.
	Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, who anticipated that the judges would be manipulated by the Executive, I am confident that the judges would not give their approval if they were not truly convinced that an extension of detention was genuinely necessary in the interests of securing evidence to bring an appropriate charge. We can expect the judges to be sceptical and rigorous. They have a fine record of defending civil liberties against the wrongful use of power by successive Home Secretaries. In the field of terrorism, we have seen the judicial challenge to control orders.
	I have rehearsed these points, which must be well known to your Lordships, because I do not think that they have been given sufficient weight in the estimation of some noble Lords who are critical of the Government and because I am not always sure that the Government's critics outside Parliament are fully aware of them. Forty-two literary celebrities have taken the Liberty whip. Can such a quantity of intellectuals—and quantity is presumably as important as quality here—be wrong? It is not inconceivable. After all, 364 economists who write to the Times were wrong about the 1981 Budget. Have all the celebrity writers, as good citizens of the democracy they wish to defend, studied the detailed provisions of the Bill?
	There may be flaws in some aspects of the Bill—we shall need to examine the provisions for parliamentary oversight—but those issues are for other debates. The issue now is simply whether there should be a power of any kind to extend pre-charge detention beyond 28 days. I believe that, with suitable safeguards, there should, and that the amendment is misconceived.

Lord Goodlad: Briefly, I bring to the attention of the Committee the role of Parliament envisaged in Clause 28, and point out that it cannot work well and should therefore be revisited. Your Lordships' Select Committee on the Constitution, in its report of 5 August, said that, in seeking ways in which Parliament may be involved in decision-taking about police detention of terrorist suspects, the Bill risks conflating the roles of Parliament and the judiciary—the noble Lords, Lord Thomas and Lord Carlile, alluded to this—inviting Parliament and the judiciary to ask and answer similar questions; placing on Parliament tasks it cannot effectively fulfil; and risking undermining the right to a fair trial of the individuals concerned.
	Under the Bill, an order declaring the reserve power exercisable will, like normal legislation, be expressed in general terms and will, on the face of it, merely permit the DPP to seek warrants for further detention from a court. However, the reality would be that the order would be made in relation to investigations into particular individuals. As the Home Secretary has acknowledged, the debate on an order is likely to include the "outline of the plot" and,
	"the what, why and when".—[Official Report, Commons, 11/6/08; col. 400.]
	Your Lordships' committee found principled and practical difficulties with this arrangement. Members and Select Committees of both Houses would have to tread a tightrope between exercising parliamentary privilege and duty of free speech to ensure proper scrutiny while, on the other hand, avoiding remarks, individual or collective, that might serve to prejudice fair trails and threaten the independence of the judiciary. Effective debates in Parliament would need not only to avoid touching on potentially prejudicial matters but also to ensure scrutiny commensurate with the fact that individual liberty would be at stake. Parliament would operate without knowing the full factual background. The Home Secretary's legal advice would be redacted to remove material the disclosure of which might damage the public interest or prejudice a prosecution.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: The noble Lord is arguing, as have others, about the impracticality of these provisions. Is it not ironic that these provisions were put in as concessions to the critics of the Bill? Is the noble Lord now agreeing with me that it would be better for the Government to go back to its original proposals?

Lord Goodlad: I am afraid that I am not agreeing with the noble Lord, whose knowledge of irony is unparalleled.
	Your Lordships' Select Committee asked the Minister in correspondence to provide details of what matters would be appropriate or inappropriate for debate in Parliament on a resolution to affirm a reserve-power order. No such further details have been provided. Your Lordships' committee is unconvinced that the Government have properly thought through the proposed scheme. It expressed concern that, under the Bill, Parliament would be asked to make decisions that, in the circumstances, it is institutionally ill-equipped to determine. Far from being a system of checks and balances, the proposals before us are, in the view of your Lordships' committee, a recipe for confusion that places on Parliament tasks that it cannot effectively fulfil and which could undermine the right of fair trial for any individuals concerned. This proposal should therefore be resisted.

Noble Lords: I—

Lord Brett: My noble and learned friend Lord Morris has been seeking your Lordships' attention for a long time.

Lord Morris of Aberavon: For any substantial change in our fundamental rights, we should endeavour to find a consensus. I have tried with my colleagues over a number of years to find a way forward. I fear that the Home Office is not listening, and its stubbornness will end in defeat.
	The loss of liberty has been progressive. At Second Reading, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, reminded us that he was wrestling with the concept of four to eight hours when he was Lord Advocate. When I was Attorney-General for Northern Ireland, I got by with seven days. I was persuaded by Mr Andy Hayman of the complexity of modern terrorist cases, and that they posed new challenges. I regret that further and more detailed investigation later proved to me that there are other means of achieving probably the same results.
	It is clear that the present 28 days have proved adequate to date. In an imperfect world, one cannot be absolutely certain that there will never be new challenges. If they ever have to be met—I hope that that will not happen—the Bill is not the means of doing so; rather, there should be a wholly judicially supervised solution. The very safeguards that the Government have sought to insert wholly undermine its workability. Confusing parliamentary and judicial functions is a recipe for disaster. The more detailed the material provided, the more prejudicial it will be. The Home Secretary suggested topics for debate, but I fear that they lack intellectual rigour: the outline of the plot, the number of suspects detained and the "what, when and why"—whatever that means. What better support can I have in saying that the system is unworkable than the same recent verdict from former Assistant Commissioner Hayman, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, that the Bill is not fit for purpose and is unworkable?
	I am grateful to the Minister for seeing me. Despite the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, had shot the Government's fox at Second Reading, he prefers those with experience in the job of prosecuting; that is, ACPO. The noble Lord, Lord Dear, has brought us up to date this afternoon and told us that there is more than one view among the police. Perhaps Mr Hayman's recent views in the Times may temper his assertion. What is strange is that no one at the coal face was consulted before legislation was introduced—

A noble Lord: Yes they were.

Lord Morris of Aberavon: Four ex-law officers who actually have been in charge of prosecutions in this country, and who have opposed this measure, were not consulted. The DPP, who at the time of giving evidence to the Select Committee had not met the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister or the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, was satisfied with the situation as it was. "It suits me nicely", he said. What about those at the coal face whose job is to prosecute these cases from day to day? I have conducted my own investigation and I do not accept that we can proceed without a much more detailed consultation with persons such as the DPP and Treasury counsel who have to present cases to juries.
	The key to the refinement of my views was referred to in detail by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu—I shall shorten it—namely, that adequate machinery is available, particularly in the form of the lower threshold of charging, which has been in operation since 2004. Instead of charging on a realistic prospect of conviction, it is sufficient to have a reasonable suspicion that a suspect has committed an offence. That is the lower standard. We should spell out what happens very carefully. If the second lower standard has been adopted, the crucial stage then is the bail application or an application to dismiss before a judge. By this time, at least an outline of the case will have been served on the defence. The strength of the evidence will be rigorously considered by the court and, after determination of this application, the case will have to pass the full code test within a reasonable time. There is no target of 28 days and I am confident that, as regards the reasonable time issue, the judiciary will act correctly and interpret that provision properly. The case will be reviewed by prosecutors at regular intervals and in the mean time the investigation can continue and, when available, notices of evidence supplementing and overtaking the outline will be served.
	All this time the defendant will be subject to the jurisdiction of the court. This will inevitably involve staged service of distinct sections of evidence. The evidential case continues to develop until the full case is served, but often beyond that as terrorism cases are frequently large and wide-ranging. I ask the Minister one crucial question: is there any evidence that such a formula has failed, or is likely to fail, on the threshold test?
	A criminal case is an ongoing process with various important and well established hurdles to be jumped on the way. It is our duty to preserve both the liberty of the subject and the security of the state, or, as I prefer it—the old fashioned words—the "Queen's peace". I fear that I cannot support the Government on this issue in the Lobby.

Lord Lyell of Markyate: I am most grateful for the opportunity to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris. He could not have put the matter more clearly or more succinctly. I shall be brief and concentrate on the key point because I agreed with every word he said. He has done the Committee a great service. I, too, support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dear. I agree with what he said and I certainly agree that we are faced with a very grave threat. If the case were made out for doing what the Government are asking us to do, I think that we would all do it, but it is not.
	The key reason for rejecting the 42-day extension on which I wish to concentrate is simply that it is not necessary. Sir Ken Macdonald, the outgoing Director of Public Prosecutions, has made this clear from the outset. I wrote to him personally on 20 May this year, asking for further information about the threshold test. I wrote because I had precisely the anxieties which motivated—although I disagree with the result—the rather passionate words of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew. I wanted to find out whether the threshold test was sensible and worked properly, and exactly how it operates. On 4 June I received an extremely helpful five-page reply, which can be found at appendix 3 on page 28 of the report of your Lordships' Select Committee on the Constitution. It well repays reading because it probably answers most of the questions that have arisen. It shows that we have a satisfactory system in which all relevant cases have been charged well within 28 days. Only eight cases have gone beyond 14 days, and of those only four have had to use the threshold test for charging. This is the test of reasonable suspicion that a terrorist offence has been committed with a prospect of further evidence within a reasonable time as opposed to the full test of the code for Crown prosecutors, which is that there is already sufficient evidence to give a realistic prospect of conviction. The DPP's letter is absolutely clear that no case will go on to trial unless the prosecutor—very experienced prosecutors are assigned to these cases—is satisfied that there is a realistic prospect of conviction.
	The point is that in all terrorist cases, as soon as the suspect is charged he is brought immediately before the court in accordance with Article 5 of the European convention, and questions of possible bail and timetables for delivery of evidence by the prosecution, justification for any delay being sought as a result of the need for further inquiries or examination of laboratory results and a detailed timetable and summary are all presented to the court by an experienced Crown prosecutor and closely monitored and decided by a High Court judge in accordance with the terrorism case management protocol. Thus, all the safeguards, some of which have been bolted on to the proposed 42-day procedure, already exist and are in place, decided upon not by Parliament or the Executive but by the independent judiciary, properly informed by the independent Crown Prosecution Service.
	I therefore believe that the whole House can be satisfied that all the proper procedures are already in place. The extension to 42 days is not merely unnecessary but is disproportionate, as I think is widely agreed in this House. It is likely to cause at least some members of the Muslim community to feel victimised. The so-called safeguards are contrary to principle, almost certainly unworkable and risk damaging the prospects of a fair trial. These are powerful objections and I very much hope that this unwise proposal will be rejected.

Lord Clinton-Davis: Why was that not argued previously in relation to 28 days? Is it not germane? What the noble and learned Lord is arguing at the moment is irrelevant as far as the basic point is concerned. Equally, what he is arguing is relevant as far as the 28 days are concerned.

Lord Lyell of Markyate: The noble Lord is right, of course—it is relevant to 28 days. I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, who expressed his serious worries about our proceeding even as far as 28 days. When you have a threshold test to charge, it is certainly a relevant point, but the Director of Public Prosecutions explains in his letter that only eight cases have had to go beyond the 14 days and only four of them have had to use the threshold test. We are where we are. We have 28 days. We should not go further.

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: I listened with the greatest of interest to the intervention of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer, because I remember how supportive he was of me when I moved an amendment for 90 days of pre-charge detention. He has not satisfactorily explained how things have changed.
	I have lost count of the times that I have spoken in this House for an increase in pre-charge detention, and the arguments have not changed. They have not changed because the reasons for the need for them have not changed. I am as convinced now as I have ever been that having a maximum of 28 days in our legal system is inadequate for the terrorist challenge that we face. The senior police officers who are—listen carefully to the adverbs that I use— currently, directly and operationally involved in counterterrorism all say that they believe that we need more than 28 days and that they need more than 28 days. What has changed under the Bill is the way in which the Government propose to meet the requirements. This is a reserve power, to extend the pre-charge detention limit up to 42 days. The need for this falls broadly under two headings. I shall be brief, because most of the arguments are well known.
	First, there is often the need in terrorist cases to intervene early. Secondly, there is the growing scale and complexity of terrorist organisations. Early intervention in terrorist cases is necessary because of the self-evident risk in allowing a case to run to obtain evidence. Police intervention is forced to be much earlier than in other criminal cases. As for the growing scale and complexity of cases, there is no doubt that, pace the noble Earl, Lord Onslow—you only need to look at the recent cases to see this without having to be told—there has been a great increase.

The Earl of Onslow: The Home Secretary said that the reason we need this power is that there is a growing threat. When asked to give evidence on the growing threat, she could not produce any. That must destroy that argument.

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: It certainly does not destroy the argument. The fact that the director-general of MI5 has said that in public, and the fact that he does not produce chapter and verse of the proof for the committee that the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, sits on, is not very surprising. The former director-general—who is in her place—enumerated that there was an increasing risk in her time, and the current director-general has also cogently explained that there is an increasing risk. The Home Secretary has also said so. Given those sources, there is no doubt about that. People can see it for themselves in the number of cases that are coming into the courts.
	There are at least 2,000 terrorist suspects, with 200 networks or cells and 30 active plots. Is that not evidence, when someone who knows what they are talking about says that? The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, says that he is convinced of an increasing threat. The evidence is overwhelming. I will not enumerate the staggering statistics about computers and disks that have to be dealt with now after any arrest. The sophisticated complexity of the material; the enormous increase in computer product, which is often encrypted; the multiple identities of suspects, whereby it can take considerable time to establish who an arrested person actually is; the global reach of the contacts involved, which often means reliance on foreign security and intelligence services for information and for operational assistance, are all factors.
	As I have said in this House before, we are very lucky to have security and intelligence services with a long history of close and successful relations with foreign services, which have often been built up slowly and painstakingly over the years. It is a mistake to think that this is easy or automatic, or that such liaisons can ever be taken for granted. Liaison services have vastly different levels of competence, resources and speed of working. In addition, they will pass on only what does not conflict with their own national interest. All that can mean time-consuming waits for information that our services need to proceed with a case.
	As I said earlier, what has changed in the Bill is that the Government are trying to deal with a threat of terrorism that is unprecedented in its nature and severity, while trying to preserve democratic principles and practice. They are doing so by introducing unprecedented safeguards and parliamentary involvement, after a very wide and broad consultation. I said on Second Reading and I now repeat that I have never before known a Home Secretary to consult so widely on a Bill. No one pretends that these attempts to satisfy concerns about civil rights and parliamentary control will be easy to implement; in fact it would be much easier to do without them. I understand the reservations of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, about parliamentary involvement in this process. In what I consider to be an authoritative and impressive intervention, he made a very powerful case. He gave his reasons, given his absolutely unparalleled experience of being the independent reviewer in the field of terrorism and terrorist cases, and he made the case for why he believes that we need to go to 42 days.
	It has already been said that it is ironic that criticism of those very provisions—parliamentary involvement and the safeguards—is coming from those who are most concerned about civil rights. Those provisions were brought in to try to meet the requirements of safeguarding civil rights. This is an honest and brave attempt to balance the operational security requirements of the law enforcement agencies to defend the public with the requirements of civil rights. As such, it deserves our support.

The Lord Bishop of Southwark: I will make a very brief contribution from these Benches. I have listened carefully to the debate this afternoon. Underpinning the disagreement on the amendment is where the balance needs to be struck between an emphasis on national security and upholding civil liberties. It is understandable that any Government would wish to put great weight on the need for national security, for protecting their citizens is the basic duty of any Government. Those of us not in government can reflect further on the balance that must be struck, particularly if, were we to get it wrong, our national security would be weakened and not strengthened through groups in society feeling that they were being targeted and treated unfairly.
	Speaking for myself, I am not persuaded that the case has yet been made for the necessity of extending the detention of terrorist suspects to 42 days. Therefore, I will support the amendment.

Lord Harris of Haringey: I—

Lord Judd: A great deal of experience has been brought to bear—

Lord Brett: My noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey has been waiting for a long time.

Lord Harris of Haringey: I declared at Second Reading that I sit as the Home Secretary's representative on the Metropolitan Police Authority, with the specific responsibility of providing lay oversight of the police work on counterterrorism. I spent an hour or so today with the senior officer at New Scotland Yard who co-ordinates terrorist investigations. I do not intend to report the detail of that conversation, as that would be inappropriate, but I can say that I am disturbed that there are Members of the Committee who have not recognised the increasing threat of terrorist action. I spend a lot of my time looking at the degree to which the police services, and, I am sure, the intelligence services, are stretched to full capacity in investigations that are graded as high priority. We cannot view that with complacency.
	We have also discussed risk, which, in terms of terrorism, has been transformed in the past 10 to 15 years. The objective of the terrorists is not to make a specific point but to inflict mass casualties. There is a desire to do "better" than has been done before. There is also the recognition that the individuals concerned will die in the course of taking that action. That means that the decision on when to intervene in any prospective plot is that much more difficult. You have to intervene earlier to avoid running the risk of possibly horrible and appalling loss of life. That is the dilemma that is faced, and it is why it is necessary for the Committee to debate these provisions.
	Much has been made of the complexity of the cases. A recent example involved the seizure of some 200 or 300 computers. A modern computer contains a terabyte of memory, which is the equivalent of 50,000 trees, cut down, converted to paper and printed on both sides. If that material is encrypted or is written entirely in Arabic or, perhaps more significantly, if it contains significant material hidden in files which have been given such innocuous labels as "holiday photographs", it is an enormous task to sift through it. That is why time is needed, because of the relationships that have to be pursued, as my noble friend Lady Ramsay said, in international jurisdictions.
	In our discussions, we have heard much about the threshold test. I had a brief exchange with my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton on this point. As I understand it—although I may be corrected by the massed ranks of noble and learned colleagues in this Committee—the decision on making a prosecution, whether or not with a reduced threshold, has to be taken by the Crown Prosecution Service. Before this provision can be implemented, the director of that service has to certify that a prosecution is necessary. This new power is a reserve power which can be used only in the event that things cannot otherwise be dealt with. Because it is a reserve power and because it requires the consent, approval and recommendation of the Director of Public Prosecutions, it can be invoked only in circumstances in which the lower threshold test has not proved satisfactory, or when the other matters that noble Lords have raised mean that the legislation is needed. Those are the only circumstances in which this failsafe will come into force.
	The reality is that this proposal is designed to protect in the event of other things failing. It can be implemented only after what has been described as a tortuous and difficult process. It should be a tortuous and difficult process. However, the provision is there for a reason. It is there because, although there may be a threat to civil liberties in any instance where someone is detained for longer than 28 days—and probably for longer than 14 days, and probably longer than seven days—the rule of proportionality states that we must protect this country and its citizens, both here and overseas, from the threat of mass murder. That is what terrorism is about.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: —

Lord Ramsbotham: —

Lord Judd: —

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: I feel that it is the will of the Committee that we ask the Minister to respond to the amendment.

Lord West of Spithead: Over the past few hours we have had another passionate, gripping and constructive debate. As a relative newcomer to this place, I can only say that it shows itself at its best when issues such as this are debated. Notwithstanding sniping from some quarters, the nation is fortunate that such a Chamber still exists to air, in a rather less party political and partisan context, matters of crucial national importance. I hope that such debates here allow consideration of the argument rather than the expression of preconceived political ideas.
	No one likes holding people in custody without charge. I can assure noble Lords that the police investigate all cases as quickly as possible and that they would not detain anyone for longer than is absolutely necessary. It is disappointing that some Members of the Committee seem to think less of the police than that. Indeed, when applying to the court for an extension of detention, the police have to present strong evidence for further detention. Judges—and I have considerable faith in judges, particularly since the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, told me they pay attention to Ministers—would not grant extensions of detention where they did not believe that the investigation was being pursued diligently and expeditiously. Judges can, as they have in the past, grant less than the full seven-day extension requested, or no extension at all if they feel that further detention is not justified. All of us would prefer to be in a position where a charge could be brought within 48 hours. But we are in a different world today, as a number of noble Lords have said.
	When it comes to terrorism, particularly modern-day terrorism, we cannot always expect to uncover the crucial evidence that can found a charge immediately on arrest. If the police wait until after a crime is committed to make an arrest, we may have scores, hundreds or even thousands of casualties. In securing a successful prosecution, it would often be advantageous to wait and gather further evidence, because conspiracy to commit an act is notoriously difficult to prove. But the risks of waiting too long and allowing another 7/7 or 9/11 are far too great. I would always prefer the police and agencies—and I make this point to them—to err on the side of the safety of our people and not to delay acting because they may be aware of a time constraint when framing a charge.
	We as a Government often face the issue that we are wrestling with today in this Committee: balancing the safety of the majority of our population against the freedom of the individual. I am certain where our duty lies. Those who are not in power, and particularly those who are never likely to be in power, have the privilege of arguing in the abstract. They are not faced with the harsh realities of being accountable to the nation for their decisions. However, this Committee has already understood the force of the argument and the necessity to change the legislation, and that it would be inconceivable in the present circumstances to return to 48 hours. Parliament has already accepted the need for 14 days' detention as the norm and, exceptionally, 28 days' pre-charge detention in terrorist cases. So today's debate is not on a matter of principle, on an extension beyond a matter of hours or on Magna Carta; it is more on a prosaic judgment as to whether 28 days is enough to ensure our safety or whether we need slightly more. As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said, we may need 12 days or so extra. It does not have to be 12 days; it could be a matter of a day or hours.
	Why do experts believe that there may be an occasion when more than 28 days will be required? I have already touched on the need to act quickly. I make no apologies, because it is important, for referring again to what former deputy assistant commissioner Peter Clarke said of the Dhiren Barot case. He said that,
	"there was not one shred of admissible evidence"
	at the point of arrest. Barot was subsequently sentenced to 40 years' imprisonment. After moving quickly, the evidence has to be sought and compiled. The difficulties of doing so are growing exponentially, as a number of noble Lords have understood and spoken about. Again, I make no apologies for reiterating some figures. In 2001, when police investigated the last major IRA case, they had to analyse the contents of one computer and a handful of floppy disks. Three years later in 2004, in the Dhiren Barot case, 270 computers and 2,000 computer disks had to be analysed. In addition, the inquiries extended across eight other countries and jurisdictions. In a recent ongoing case, 30 addresses were searched within two hours and 400 computers, plus 8,000 disks, were seized for analysis.
	The terrorists learn quickly from their mistakes and our successes. They make much more use of encryption and different communication devices, and they move across borders using numerous names and numerous countries to store, access and hide material. They have steadily become more aware of all our capabilities, particularly those relating to intercept. The consequence of all this—and I have not even added the extra delays that would be caused by contamination of evidence if the plot involved CBRN, to which a couple of noble Lords referred—is that more and more time is required to gather the evidence and to charge.
	We have not required more than 28 days up to now, so what is the reason for the change? That is the question that a number of people asked, including the noble Lord, Lord Dear. The situation was exactly the same when we extended the period from seven to 14 days and from 14 to 28 days. On neither of those occasions had there been a case that required more than the existing time limit, but all the trends showed us that it would happen because of the complexity to which I have referred, and of course Parliament was right on both occasions. Such an extension was required and then used.
	In every arm of government and in the commercial world one has to make serious decisions based on predictions and trends. That cannot be avoided. The analysis now leads inevitably to the conclusion that more than 28 days will, before long, be required. But would such powers be used indiscriminately by our police? A number of noble Lords referred to that. I have rather more faith in our police than some people and organisations seem to exhibit, and in this context it is well worth noting that the police have not needed or used more than 14 days in the past 14 months because there has been no requirement to do so. There have been no plots of the complexity that requires that length of investigation. I have to say—this is not giving anything away—that at present all our intelligence indicates that that might not remain the case for long. I digress here and mention the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, who said that the threat has not increased. I am afraid that the threat has increased dramatically, and that has been stated very clearly. We are monitoring 2,000 people, and the things that regularly cross my desk are daunting. There is a greatly increased threat, which we have to manage.
	However, I understand the concerns of those who say, "Hang on a minute. If we go down this route we could end up with 300 days, 500 days or whatever", Indeed, it was concern about how far we should go that led me to express doubts about the 56 days that was talked about last year.
	I have no easy answer to this. Rather, it has to be a question of judgment using pragmatism, common sense and knowledge of all the issues. I believe—the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, touched on this as well—that 42 days is about right, bearing in mind that we are looking at going beyond 28 days, and at the moment, using my professional judgment, pragmatism and common sense, I do not envisage additional complexities that would require more than that. I cannot say that that is any more than a judgment—I do not know the exact answer—but it will be only the most exceptional, complex and serious cases that require more than 28 days.
	What of those who have been saying that more than 28 days is not required? Most of them of course are interested laypersons and not experts. Many call in aid senior police officers, serving and retired. I can say only that ACPO, the chief constables of all the forces where the bulk of terrorists have been apprehended—not those from some of the shires—and, more recently, retired senior police officers who spent time in post handling these complex operations, rather than those who have been retired longer, all believe that more than 28 days will be required at some stage in the future. Indeed, this morning I had a phone call from Chief Constable Ken Jones. He phoned me to say, "Best of luck. Charge of the Light Brigade", or something like that, but then he said, "I do hope you manage to get it through because there will be a case where we need more than 28 days".
	Noble Lords have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, the independent reviewer of terrorism, who, more than any other non-operational person, has access to information on terrorist investigations. He is convinced that at some stage more than 28 days will be required.
	Andy Hayman, former assistant commissioner for special operations at Scotland Yard, has been quoted at length. I shall set out exactly what he said:
	"As someone who has been deeply involved in every major counter-terrorism investigation since 2005, I am convinced that we will soon need the power to hold suspects for more than the current limit of 28 days—and that we need to legislate for that power now rather than in the middle of an emergency".
	I have to say that I am sure that there will be a need to go beyond 28 days.
	My noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon asked whom we have consulted. I could go into detail on this but over four months we consulted more than 100 organisations, the judiciary, legal organisations, police forces, the CPS and the DPP, and the DPP was consulted before the Bill was introduced.
	I asked myself whether there was any way of avoiding extensions by using technology or perhaps using other legislation. These were the very issues that I wanted to investigate last year when I was falsely accused of a U-turn. I was glad to hear the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, accuse me of that again. It was an interesting interlude in my life but at least it brought the new phrase, "Doing an Admiral West", into the drivers' lexicon, so it was not all bad.
	The short answer to whether technology or other legislation will remove the need to extend is no, and certainly using intercept as evidence or post-charge questioning are not silver bullets to achieve this end. I do not intend to go into detail on using intercept as evidence but we are pursuing the recommendations of the Chilcot review at full speed on a cross-party basis.
	I looked at the question of technology but it cannot resolve the time aspects of analysing ever growing amounts of computer data, not least because there are choke points where only a limited number of assets can be brought to bear and the need to go through other jurisdictions and languages is incredibly time-consuming. Some of them do not want to help us; it takes a long time.
	So what of using other legislation or other charges? Let us take the threshold test, for example. I think that I have three pages on that. I could go through them or I could say that I am afraid that it does not meet all our requirements. It has been debated at length and I shall spare the Committee those three pages. The threshold test does not achieve what we want.
	We have of course looked at whether the Civil Contingencies Act could provide a workable model, but we, the Home Affairs Select Committee, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and the police have all concluded that it is not the answer. This is primarily because the Act was not designed to provide for extensions of detention in terrorist-related cases and it would give rise to considerable legal and other difficulties if we tried to use it in that way.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: The Minister has not yet come to the question of legal difficulties under the European Convention on Human Rights, but can he tell the Committee how he answers the view of all independent legal commentators and of the Joint Committee on Human Rights that there will be serious breaches of the convention without a derogation? Will he be dealing with that?

Lord West of Spithead: I did not intend to go into that in detail. I simply say that I see nothing at all in what we are doing here that goes against the ECHR. There would have to be a challenge through the courts to show that but I do not believe that it does; I think that we have all the right safeguards in place.
	The noble Lord, Lord Imbert, made very clear during Second Reading that using spurious minor charges and then post-charge questioning was not the correct way to do business in this country, and I agree entirely with that. The DPP is totally against holding charges of the type that the noble Lord, Lord Dear, talked about. They are contrary to our legal system. As a throwaway comment, I have to add that it is ridiculous to say that you are entitled to legal representation post-charge but to suggest that there is no legal representation or access to a lawyer pre-charge. There is.
	I am convinced that there will be a complex case in the future where the police will need more than 28 days to bring the appropriate charges, and there is no way of avoiding that stark fact. That is why we are proposing contingency, or what I sometimes call—perhaps somewhat inelegantly—back-pocket legislation, to enable the 28-day limit to be increased in exceptional circumstances, and then only for a very limited period. What is the balance of risk? As a Minister, I have to ask that. If I am wrong—and my goodness, I hope that I am—there will be no such complex plot and the limit will never be extended above 28 days under the powers in this Bill. But if the proposed legislation is rejected and the Government and the experts are right about needing more than 28 days, it could mean that dangerous terrorists are released to commit atrocities or destroy other potential prosecutions. They will not be brought to justice for the terrorist crimes that they have committed.
	The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, referred to the Overt trial. I have to be careful. I cannot really talk abut this because there are considerable things going on. All I would say is thank goodness that two men were found guilty of conspiracy to murder.

A noble Lord: Three.

Lord West of Spithead: Three, I hear. They could have murdered tens or hundreds—probably not thousands, but hundreds of people could have been killed. We get into the question of scale raised by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. Is the fact that a small number of people may have been held for whom we could not get a charge to be weighed in the balance against the fact that two or three people could have killed hundreds and were found guilty? I throw that to the Floor.

Lord Blackwell: Is the noble Lord saying that if a person is released, rather than being held in custody at the end of 28 days because the threshold test is not met, that significantly increases the threat of a subsequent terrorist event? Are the public not entitled to expect that in those exceptional circumstances, that individual, once released, would be kept under surveillance to reduce that risk?

Lord West of Spithead: The Government will do the absolute maximum to try to ensure people's safety by ensuring that there are people covering those who have been released, who are after all innocent. Complete checks need to be made all the time as such people will be able to use their phones and perhaps unravel cases that may be going on against someone else. They will not be found guilty of something they intended to do, which is possibly to kill thousands of our people. That cannot be right and we must try to avoid that from happening.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: My noble friend has said that in his judgment such power will certainly be needed in the future. In the event that the proposal were defeated in this House tonight, would it be incumbent on the Opposition to support emergency and less satisfactory legislation?

Lord West of Spithead: I shall come to my noble friend's point a little later in my response.
	As a Government, we feel that the imbalance in that risk is simply too great and not legislating is a risk we should not take with the lives of our population. Having made that decision, how can we safeguard the rights of individuals caught up in this process? There has been detailed consultation across the board on this issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, pointed out that she has never known so much consultation by a Home Secretary. The other place demanded a number of extra safeguards, including stronger parliamentary involvement. A number of people from all parties decided that.
	I have to be careful what I say, but to my mind the judicial safeguards that already exist are without a doubt the most important to secure an individual's rights. It is important to remember that a judge may grant extensions for only a few more hours—or maybe a day—over the 28-day limit, but in highly pressured situations where the CPS and police are trying to secure sufficient evidence to charge, those additional few hours may make all the difference. Additionally, the fact that the DPP has to submit a bid in conjunction with a senior police officer to the Home Secretary before the Home Secretary may increase the detention limit adds further to that protection. As we know, the current DPP would look at that in great detail if he were about to do it. The fact that the Home Secretary has to go before the House, as has been pointed out by noble Lords, will focus that Home Secretary's mind. I do not believe that it will be done lightly.
	I was concerned, as are a number of others in the Committee, that the safeguards had become rather cumbersome. Indeed, I was very concerned, so specifically asked ACPO if they were workable. It said, "Yes. The proposal is a bit clumsy but it is workable". That is good enough for me. As the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, said, we can readdress it in the future anyway. Some have suggested that there may be confusion between the role of Parliament and the judiciary. I can understand that, but it represents a misreading of the provisions. The role of Parliament is to discuss and, if so minded, approve the order-making power to apply for and grant up to 42 days' detention. The courts, in contrast, assess on a case-by-case basis whether the police and CPS need more time to collect and examine evidence in order that a charge may be brought. I believe that it is the judiciary that safeguards the rights of the individual.
	Concern has been expressed about parliamentary debate being limited. I could go into the things that could be debated, but there is no point, as I identified the key balance between the two. As I have already said, ACPO considers this to be workable, and although it is rather inelegant, it possibly gives more protections for those caught up in the process. Clearly Members from all parties in the other place felt they wanted those, so they got them.
	A great deal of nonsense has been talked about global comparisons. First, I should say that as long as our legal system is compatible with our human rights obligations—I am entirely satisfied that the Bill's proposals are compatible—I do not really care what other countries do. My prime concern is the safety of our citizens and visitors to this country. I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Dear, and others, delude themselves if they think that people in these other countries are held for these short times. I am constantly talking to my opposite number. I will not go into detail—I get into enough trouble as it is—but I assure you that you are bloody lucky to live in this country. That is all I would say. I do not intend to go into the detail here, but I might do so on a private one-on-one basis. I also never cease to be amazed how people who despise and hate our country and who are here illegally fight tooth and nail to avoid being sent to any other jurisdiction. I try to send them to all sorts of others, but they do not want to go to any of them.
	Finally, and importantly, there is understandable concern that this proposed back-pocket measure will alienate communities. That is an important point. I am particularly proud of the advances we have made in the past 15 months with the "prevent" strand of our counterterrorist strategy. We have done a great deal in that area. In the case of this Bill we have undertaken extensive consultation, including with representatives from Muslim communities and other faith and community groups. It was quite clear that pre-charge detention was in no way near the top of their concerns and we have seen no evidence to suggest that the 28-day limit has undermined their support in dealing with terrorism. However, as we have made clear, we will undertake a review of the impact of counterterrorism legislation on the Muslim community.

Lord Ahmed: Will the Minister indicate the survey and which Muslim communities were consulted on the pre-trial period? Where did they agree that they accepted 42 days instead of 28? Only one organisation accepted that, which was patronised with money and grants.

Lord West of Spithead: I did not say that people had said, "Gosh, we support 42 days". I said that we saw no evidence to suggest that this undermined their support. My noble friend talks of patronising. I fear that sometimes people are rather patronising on this subject. Muslim communities are no different from any others in that they want criminals caught and prosecuted and want the police to have the powers to do that. Some people patronise them. The Bill contains measures to enhance and protect national security and it is for the greater good of all communities, including Muslims, who are an integral part of our society. I think that they see that as well.
	I have spoken at length but make no apology as this is an important matter which, if we get wrong, we could all live to regret. When the need for more than 28 days arrives—and it certainly will—we can either have a well considered and debated back-pocket measure in place ready to make available to prosecutors or we will be forced to release terrorists on to our streets, unless some hurried legislation is passed and we all know that hurried legislation in a period of emergency is bad legislation. I assure the Committee that whoever is in power will find it a very uncomfortable moment.
	I therefore ask for Amendment No. 29 to be withdrawn and that Clauses 22 to 32 and Schedule 2 stand part of the Bill.

Lord Dear: I shall take no more than two minutes of your Lordships' time. We are already approaching 11 hours of debate in your Lordships' House, if one includes the Second Reading and today's proceedings. I am most impressed with the commitment of all sides of the Committee in trying to find a solution. I am also very grateful to the three co-signatories to my amendment, who spoke so well at the beginning of the debate.
	I shall pick out only four points and shall give them one line each, as it were. I have heard no evidence of a current need to extend. That is probably given on both sides. I have listened very closely to what successive DPPs said. They do not need it now; neither do they see a need in the future. Please note that they are the people who make the decision on the ground while the clock is running. I have heard no challenge to the suggestion—more than a suggestion—that I and many others have put forward that it is possible to use existing law when running through the 28-day process to charge what, with the greatest respect to him, the Minister called holding charges. They are not holding charges. No one can say that charges of possession of explosive materials or preparatory acts of terrorism are holding charges. They are serious in their own right. If the investigation is continued beyond that point, and the prime offence is charged later, then so be it. We have heard a lot about the threshold test that allows that sort of thing to go forward.
	I was disappointed when the Minister, almost as a—

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I apologise to the noble Lord for interrupting at this late stage. He suggested that people should be charged with, for example, possession of explosives. Will he give the Committee his realistic assessment of how long they would be likely to spend in custody after being charged with such an offence? Would it be more than an extra 14 days or less?

Lord Dear: That is the case. We are talking about the difference between being held in custody—it is no good the noble Lord shaking his head—not knowing why you are there or what the charge is and being charged and in the legal process.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I—

Lord Dear: No, I will not give way.
	The difference is obvious. In this hypothetical case of possession of explosives, you charge immediately. I repeat myself for, I think, the third time in your Lordships' House. You charge the offence, you give access to a solicitor, and you tell what the offence is. You are into the judicial process. It is for the courts to decide whether the prosecution is delaying. The courts have many resources for forcing the prosecution to bring the case as speedily as possible—it is no good the noble Lord raising his eyebrows because that is a fact. That is a perfectly justifiable way of going forward.
	I was disappointed that the Minister should almost in one line, and getting a laugh in the process, overlook the fact that common-law countries do not even approach 28 days. The nearest is 12 days. The argument follows immediately: if they can make do with 12 days or single figures, why are we looking, in any circumstances, to go to 42 days?
	Lastly, ACPO is divided. It agrees with that. Andy Hayman, who is recently out of office as an assistant commissioner, said that the proposals are bureaucratic, convoluted and unworkable. He was supported by a range of law officers in your Lordships' House: the noble and learned Lords, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, Lord Lyell of Markyate, Lord Morris of Aberavon and Lord Falconer of Thoroton, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. One could go on. If they do not know rather more than ACPO, then I am not sure what we should be debating today.
	We have now been going for approaching 11 hours. I am not satisfied that we have heard anything today that causes me to change my mind or to think that this amendment should be dropped. I beg leave to test the opinion of the Committee.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 29) shall be agreed to?
	Their Lordships divided: Contents, 309; Not-Contents, 118.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
	Clause 22 [Grave exceptional terrorist threat]:

Baroness Hayman: I cannot call Amendment No. 30 because of pre-emption.

[Amendment No. 30 not moved.]
	Clause 22 negatived.
	Clause 23 [Power to declare reserve power exercisable]:

Baroness Hayman: I cannot call Amendment No. 31 because of pre-emption.

[Amendment No. 31 not moved.]
	Clause 23 negatived.

Lord Tunnicliffe: I beg to move that the House do now resume.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
	House resumed.

Financial Markets

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg leave to repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the other place earlier today. The Statement is as follows:
	"Mr Speaker, with your permission, I would like to make a Statement on this morning's announcement on the implementation of the proposals I announced last week. Again, I hope the House will understand that it was necessary for me to issue a market notice this morning, ahead of the markets opening.
	"In my Statement to the House last Wednesday, I outlined the principles of the Government's proposals to restore confidence in the banking system and put banks on a stronger footing—essential steps in helping the people and businesses of this country—and support the economy as a whole. Since then, there have been intensive discussions with UK banks and institutions. I can today set out to the House how the principles set out last Wednesday are being applied.
	"Let me first remind the House of the three key elements of the measures I outlined last week: first, to inject sufficient liquidity into the financial system now; secondly, to make available at least £50 billion of capital, should it be required, to recapitalise the UK banking system; and, thirdly, to provide a guarantee on eligible new debt to support medium-term lending between banks. These measures aim to unblock the inter-bank lending system and strengthen UK institutions, so that banks can start lending to people again. This is necessary, both to stabilise the banking system and to support the wider economy.
	"No country alone can solve the global problem. At the weekend, at both the G7 Finance Ministers' meeting and at the IMF, it was clear that the three elements of last week's proposals will be essential parts of any global recovery plan. Yesterday, the Prime Minister had discussions with European Union leaders and they too agreed that this was the right way to stabilise and rebuild the banking system.
	"Today, many European Union Governments have announced how they plan to support their financial systems. So it is increasingly clear that the measures I am announcing today form the basis of an international consensus on the right response to these events.
	"Let me set out to the House the detail of today's announcement, which covers both liquidity and capital. Turning first to the funding of the banking system—or liquidity—the Bank of England will continue supplying sufficient short-term funds. This will include, from today, an unlimited amount of dollar funds available to banks to be swapped for sterling funds and continued loan operations through the special liquidity scheme.
	"Additionally, today I have announced details of the Government guarantee scheme for new lending between banks—an essential part of banks resuming lending to people and businesses. The guarantee under the scheme will be provided by Her Majesty's Treasury directly. It will be temporary, covering new lending issued during a six-month period, but this period is renewable. It will be priced on commercial terms, which can be varied at the Treasury's discretion, but initially set at a premium of 50 basis points above the recent average cost of default insurance for each of the participating banks. It is risk-based. The guarantee scheme will be available only to those banks and institutions which participate in the Government's recapitalisation scheme, as I made clear last week.
	"The banks taking part in this scheme are given the option of raising capital in the open market in the usual way or through the Government's bank reconstruction fund. When raising capital through the reconstruction fund, the participating banks receive an investment from the Government in return for shares.
	"Let me outline, in turn, the position of each of the eight major UK banks and building societies which agreed to the recapitalisation proposals last week. Santander has agreed to transfer £1 billion of capital into its UK operations. Barclays will raise more than £10 billion by next spring, through a combination of preference and ordinary shares, raised from private sources and other measures.
	"HSBC announced last Friday that it will raise £750 million of new capital for its UK operation in the open market. Standard Chartered has announced that it has already met its agreed capital requirements. Nationwide Building Society has announced that it will increase its capital base by £500 million.
	"Let me now outline how HBOS, Lloyds TSB and RBS will be recapitalised through the bank reconstruction fund. Subject to take-up by existing shareholders, the Government will take significant shareholdings in these banks, in one case a majority stake. In line with normal commercial practices, the Government on behalf of taxpayers will have appropriate representation on their boards. These shareholdings will be managed on a fully commercial basis by an arm's-length body with a precisely defined remit to act in the interests of taxpayers.
	"Government support in respect of these three banks is tied to conditions covering executive pay and dividend policies. Conditions have also been agreed with them on the level of lending to small businesses and homebuyers. We are making it clear that there will need to be a strong focus at these recapitalised banks on making available lending for small business and homebuyers. These conditions are set out in the individual agreements with the banks, copies of which will be placed in the Library.
	"In the case of Lloyds TSB and HBOS, the Government will purchase both ordinary and preference shares once the merger is complete. HBOS will receive up to an £8.5 billion investment into newly issued ordinary shares on completion of the merger. The Government will also invest up to £4.5 billion into newly issued ordinary shares of Lloyds TSB at completion. At the same time, we will invest up to an additional £4 billion in preference shares in the merged institution, with £3 billion of which being invested in HBOS and £1 billion in Lloyds TSB.
	"In return for this investment, which potentially represents around 44 per cent of the proposed merged bank, the Government will appoint two independent board members. No cash bonuses will be paid to any board member this year. Directors in HBOS will be asked to relinquish their rights to bonuses and directors in Lloyds TSB will receive restricted stock instead of cash for any 2008 bonus entitlements. The availability of lending to homeowners and small businesses will be maintained to at least 2007 levels, and greater support will be given to people experiencing difficulties with mortgage payments to help them stay in their homes.
	"For RBS, the Government will take up to £15 billion of ordinary shares and £5 billion of preference shares. This potentially represents a 63 per cent interest in the bank, in return for which the Government will appoint three independent board members. Again, no bonus will be awarded to any board member this year, and any bonus paid next year will be in stock and linked to long-term growth in the bank. Mortgage and SME business lending availability will be maintained at 2007 levels, to the benefit of people up and down the country. These steps will help put RBS on a stronger footing and allow it to build on its core retail banking operation.
	"These announcements represent a total recapitalisation of just under £50 billion for the eight major banks, in line with my announcement on Wednesday. And as I said then, more capital is available to smaller institutions, should they need it. The Government do not want to run Britain's banks; they want to rebuild them. The long-term future of UK banks lies in the private sector. We will aim to sell the public share in the participating banks as soon as feasibly possible. Our objective today is to stabilise and rebuild, and we will maintain our stake for as long as it takes to do that.
	"I want to say a few words about the Icelandic banks. I met the Icelandic Finance Minister in Washington at the weekend, and I made it very clear that it is imperative that we work together to resolve the position of creditors in this country. Our authorities have set up an arrangement, agreed in principle, for an accelerated payout to depositors. We are also working with the Icelandic authorities to facilitate claims by UK charities and local authorities on their deposits held at these Icelandic banks. In addition to this, the Bank of England is today providing a short-term secured loan of up to £100 million to Landsbanki to help maximise the returns to UK creditors.
	"All the operations of the Bank Reconstruction Fund will give the Government a capital stake—an investment—so the money we borrow is exchanged for valuable assets, and because some of these shares are purchased on preferential terms, the Government are better protected and get a better return. The Government guarantee to support new lending between banks will be charged on full commercial terms, ensuring that the taxpayer is appropriately rewarded. The injections of liquidity, through the SLS and other operations, simply allow banks to swap securities with the Bank of England, so the risk remains with the banks, not the taxpayer. In other words, we get the money back. So any additional borrowing and debt incurred by the Government as a result of these proposals is either in return for assets charged at commercial rates, or in the form of a temporary loan to the banks. So, as was the case with the temporary nationalisation of Northern Rock, the most appropriate measures of government borrowing and debt to judge the position of the public finances will be ones that exclude the Government's stake in the banking sector.
	"The principles which I announced last week are now being adopted across the major world economies. It is essential that Governments work together, decisively and quickly, not only to stabilise the system today but also take action to prevent these problems happening again in the future. That is why we have to work together to improve international supervision. Tomorrow, this House will see the Second Reading of the Banking Bill, a further step towards making our system more robust.
	"Today's announcement is a necessary and significant step to restoring confidence in the banking system and making it resilient in the future. These proposals fully respect the rights of existing shareholders, and despite current market conditions, the UK banking sector can have confidence about its future. These are very turbulent times in financial markets, but I believe these measures are essential to stabilise the financial system and help the UK economy. We are committed to do whatever it takes to stabilise the banking system, protect savers and taxpayers, and support the wider economy".
	My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating yet another Statement on the financial crisis, made by the Chancellor in another place. The Minister will not expect these Benches to rejoice in the fulfilment of the Labour Party's 1983 manifesto threat to take one or more banks into national ownership in order to control their lending and other policies. Nevertheless, we acknowledge that these are extreme times and that extreme actions are necessary, and we will continue to work constructively with the Government, including on the Banking Bill which will reach us soon. Last week, I wished the package that was announced well, but said that I wished I was confident that it would succeed. Clearly it did not, which is why we have ended up with the part nationalisation measures today. For the sake of our economy, I also wish today's measures well, and I hope that they will succeed.
	Will the Minister say how the Government measure success? We believe that success cannot be scored unless the real economy is protected from recession, or at least from a prolonged one. However, the Government have continually refused to update their official growth statistics, and the lack of a growth forecast is a real problem, and this is despite the fact that all the emerging statistics and the professional consensus are in comprehensive disagreement with the Government. Will the Government now come clean on the economic prospects for the country, because we believe that Parliament and the country as a whole should be informed of the forecast and what difference this package of measures will make?
	Last Wednesday, the Government announced that they would invest up to £50 billion in preference shares in UK banks. There was no hint of taking equity stakes of such dimensions that the end result would be outright control of one major UK bank and a de facto controlling interest in another. Were the Government not in possession of the full facts last week? Can the Minister explain the Government's change of mind?
	I hope that the Minister will also clarify the nature of the obligations that the banks which are taking the Government's equity support will make. This morning's announcement referred to,
	"maintaining over the next three years the availability and active marketing of competitively priced lending to homeowners and small businesses at 2007 levels".
	This was described as "madness" on FT Alphaville, while the Council of Mortgage Lenders doubted whether it would be "either prudent or desirable". Are the Government really saying that they want to hardwire those heady days of 2007 lending, including the house price bubble, into the system? Do the Government take a different view from most of the market; namely, that the banking system must be deleveraged? Indeed, is that not what would normally result from the significant increases in tier 1 and core capital that the banks are now embarking upon?
	Today's announcements deal with the capitalisation of the largest banks, and this will cost taxpayers £37 billion. The others will take self-help measures, doubtless to avoid the interference that the Government's shareholdings would involve. This morning's announcement stated that the Government would stand ready to provide similar support to all eligible institutions. Can the Minister say how much taxpayers' money the Government expect to spend on other banks? Has the FSA concluded its discussions on capital requirements with all other eligible institutions? There are obvious dangers, if only to the confidence within the banking system, if there are still unresolved issues. Can the Minister say whether the FSA is now content with the capitalisation plans of all eligible institutions and, if not, when we may expect that process to be concluded?
	There is anger outside the rarefied world of the City and the Treasury about the massive amount of taxpayers' money which is being poured into the banking system. What can the Minister say about protecting taxpayers' interests? Does the "precisely defined remit" that was promised for the shareholdings extend to when taxpayers can expect their money back?
	The Chairman of the Financial Services Authority, the noble Lord, Lord Turner of Ecchinswell, at lunchtime today on the radio said:
	"Many lessons have been learned over what has gone on in the last 10 years ... we probably allowed a boom to go on for too long".
	We agree with that and we know who was in charge for the past 10 years. The Government are all too ready to blame the US or global conditions for our current problems, but the fact is that our economy was ill equipped to cope with the bust that inevitably followed the boom.
	The £300 billion package that the Government are committing to the equity plus guarantee package is roughly 19 per cent of our GDP. This is a higher percentage than any of the packages announced by any of the other countries in the EU and is nearly four times the 5 per cent that the US is committing. Can the Minister explain how it is that the crisis was nothing to do with us but is costing us the most?
	The Chancellor said in his Statement that we should not count the extra borrowing to fund this package as government borrowing. Does not the Minister agree that it is clear that the ONS will do just that? The Institute of Fiscal Studies estimates that adding in all the extra borrowing since the Chancellor's last Budget, including these latest measures, will push borrowing above 50 per cent of GDP. Does the Minister recall the last time that this happened? It was in 1976, when the Labour Government went cap in hand to the IMF. Do the Government have any idea when they expect to return debt to more manageable levels?
	I appreciate the Minister's difficulties—he is not a full-time Treasury Minister—in responding to detailed questions, but I am not alone in having been disappointed last week with the Minister's rate of non-response to the questions that were put to him. I hope that today he will give a more comprehensive set of answers but, if he is unable to do so, will he commit to replying in writing to the questions that Hansard will show that I and others have put to him?

Lord Newby: My Lords, we, too, are grateful to the noble Lord for coming to the House for the third time in a week to repeat a Statement on the banking crisis. I hope the current rate of Statement-giving now rapidly diminishes.
	We welcomed in principle the Statement that he made last week and we welcome today's Statement in principle as well. We are pleased to see that the Government are acting on bonuses at the banks they are directly recapitalising. The noble Baroness talks about anger at the Government's funding of the banks, but there is real anger at the fact that bankers have been taking huge bonuses while driving their banks into the ground. I am sure that the country will expect the Government to be very hard on that. Will the Minister say whether this bearing down on bonuses will go beyond the banks which the Government are directly recapitalising and cover all the banks covered by the recapitalisation scheme? They are set to benefit hugely from guarantees and one would hope that the Government impose at least some of the same conditions on them as on the banks they are directly recapitalising.
	I have one concern about the language in the Statement concerning the banks having agreed to maintain lending at 2007 levels. This is obviously welcome for small businesses but, given that 2007 levels of lending on mortgages were fuelling an unsustainable boom in house prices, is that really what the Government mean? I suspect it is not but it would be useful if the Minister could clarify that today.
	Have the Government sought any assurances from the banks about the terms on which it is lending to small businesses? The problem is not simply that the lending has dried up but that the banks have been imposing arbitrarily significantly higher interest rates and charges to small business borrowers which, in some cases, have been almost as damaging as if the facilities had been withdrawn.
	The Government are taking powers to appoint non-executive directors to the banks which they are directly recapitalising, and that is surely right. Although we on these Benches have no great faith in the Government being a banker, we have not huge faith in bankers to be bankers either. Therefore we are relieved that the Government are putting some of their own people in place.
	My colleague in another place, Vince Cable, has suggested that now the Prime Minister has got back his Stalinist approach to life in dealing with the banks, he needs a Beria to organise a purge of failed bankers. We are pleased to see that a number of bankers seem to have taken the revolver out of the drawer, but we hope there may be further progress on this front before too long. Let me make one suggestion about who might replace them. There are a number of highly respected executives from the mutually owned building society sector who have not been seduced by the exotic and risky products which have brought the high street banks low; perhaps they might get a call over the coming days. The Statement says that the shareholdings will be managed on a commercial basis by an arm's-length body. Can the Minister say what kind of body and who its members are likely to be?
	When we discussed the first of the Minister's three Statements last week, I spent a little time speaking about the need to put a great deal of emphasis on co-operation at European and international level. We are very pleased that that has happened. This weekend, the Prime Minister was able to have a major influence on EU members by talking to the euro-zone Finance Ministers. This was a unique event. The Chancellor was not at that meeting and will not be at future meetings of the euro-zone Finance Ministers. It is absolutely clear that that is the body that takes a decision and then goes to the rest of the EU and, in effect, says, "Chaps, this is what we are doing". The UK Government have no place on the body and, while I do not want to excite Members on the Conservative Benches by mentioning the word "euro" at this time of night, do the Government believe there is any scope for a permanent involvement of the UK Government in the euro-zone group of Finance Ministers given that they, at long last, seem to be getting their act together in the co-ordination of European financial policy?
	My final question on the international front is that, given its financial strength, China will be in a strong position as a result of events of recent weeks, but it is not clear why the Chinese Government do not appear to have been at the heart of the discussions which have so far taken place. Is this because they were not asked, or is this because they were asked and decided to leave it to capitalists to sort out the mess first before they come in and pick up the pieces?
	The response of the markets today suggests that the worst of the banking crisis may be over, but the crisis of the real economy is just beginning. Having shown that it can help the banks in their hour of need, the challenge now facing the Government is to help those who are facing the loss of their jobs and their homes. This will now increasingly be the focus of our debates over the months to come.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their response to the Statement and the broad welcome which they evinced in principle. I hope that the noble Baroness will recognise that the Government are approaching this issue not, as she suggested, on the basis of positions adopted more than a quarter of a century ago but on the basis of the real need of the British economy, particularly the finance sector at the present time. Regarding the international dimension to the proposals to which the noble Lord, Lord Newby, referred, there is a great deal of support for the approach that the Government are taking and a degree of emulation.
	The noble Lord will know that there is no mileage at this point in talking of membership of the euro, with that happy, throwaway line for the Liberal Democrat Party. I hope that he will give credit for the fact that European Finance Ministers have been very concerned to discuss the British proposals and, in key respects, have taken steps to follow the basis of those proposals in some of the developments for their own banking structure. I reassure the noble Lord that co-operation at that level, which has been a feature of this past week, is bound to continue. In the same way, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have been active in the G7 and have been very concerned that the Americans fully understand the nature of the British response to the banking crisis and the importance of the Americans following a strategy. Contrary to what the noble Baroness indicated, the Americans were first to propose the figures involved, not through any doctrinaire position or because of any ideological stance, unless she is suggesting that we have been successful in persuading President Bush of the merits of certain stances of effective government intervention. No. The Americans have been concerned with how they bring the necessary government resources to support a system which was on the brink of collapse.
	The noble Baroness suggested that I could not go into detail when discussing certain areas last week, and of course I could not. It has taken a week of negotiation with the banks. If she thinks that we were supposed to promise significant sums of money without having any basis for negotiation with the banks and getting understandings of what the terms should be, she is being rather more naive than does her credit. It was necessary for the Government to carry out these negotiations.
	In giving support for the recapitalisation of the major banks which are involved in the exercise as well as the potential for other banks and financial institutions which may need help, of course we are concerned that they know the terms on which this is to be effected. I reassure the noble Baroness that the Financial Services Authority has today published a document that indicates the nature of the strategies which the institutions will need to follow in order to qualify for government support. They include support for the real economy. What does she think the promise of support for small and medium-sized enterprises is? What does she think that seeking to avoid the repossession of our fellow citizens' homes and keeping that to an absolute minimum is about if not the relationship between the financial institutions and the real economy? If she thinks it is crying in the wilderness to say that anything can be done in this period of crisis to help mortgage holders, I can only say that there are rather more constructive optimists on this side of the House and, equally importantly, among the institutions which lend as well. That is why we are able to indicate that the terms on which we are reaching the agreement with the banks is a strategy for lending to SMEs and advancing mortgages.
	On preference shares, we have been very concerned to emphasise that the very significant sums involved in the recapitalisation of certain banks come with clear terms of government interest in their strategy. It is all right for the noble Baroness to say that people are upset about bonuses to those who have got us into this mess. Let her rest assured that the Government intend that bonuses will be paid not on the basis of the past but on the future position in share options. In that way, there will be rewards for bankers who are successful; such success will be measured in terms of the effectiveness of the bank strategy over a period of time and not these excessively short-term measures which helped to reduce us to the calamitous state that we all face.
	I am grateful to both noble Lords for their responses but emphasise that the Government are pursuing a line which the international community is eager, in significant ways, to follow.

Baroness Ford: My Lords, I welcome the Government's Statement and, in so doing, draw attention to two aspects of the scheme last week which understandably will not necessarily hog the headlines today. I declare an interest: I hesitate to say this to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, but I earn my living in the capital markets, so he may simply flay me when we go outside. The two important measures—the credit guarantee scheme and the extension of the special liquidity scheme—have been exceptionally important. The leadership that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has shown other countries has been really important.
	I take issue with the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, when she said that the action taken last week plainly had not worked. Although one swallow does not make a summer, I draw her attention to a 7 basis points reduction in the LIBOR rate today, which is the largest—

Noble Lords: Ask a question!

Baroness Ford: My Lords, I am sorry that noble Lords do not like the answer, but there has been a 7 basis points reduction in the LIBOR rate today. Here is my question: does my noble friend agree that that is an endorsement of the very strong and decisive action that was taken last week?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the question from my noble friend was well worth waiting for. I am not surprised that she prefaced it by a repudiation of some of the comments which have been made across the Dispatch Box from the Opposition. As she rightly says, two crucial dimensions of this support for and development of the financial institutions are the credit guarantee scheme and the special liquidity scheme. That is clearly crucial to the oiling of the wheels which guarantee inter-bank lending which, only a week ago, was at a catastrophic, stationary level.

Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I am inclined to think that a few minutes is a long time in banking. I am sure that when the Prime Minister tapped Lloyds TSB on the shoulder and said that it would be rather helpful if it could merge with Halifax Bank of Scotland, he did not appreciate that only a few weeks later, a much bigger lifeboat would be required.
	I am somewhat mystified. My question relates to paragraphs 35 to 38 in the copy of the Statement. In the case of Lloyds TSB and HBOS, the Statement says that,
	"the Government will purchase both ordinary and preference shares once the merger is complete".
	It goes on to say that HBOS will get so much and Lloyds will get so much. However, if the purchase of shares is to take place when the merger is complete, you will not end up with shares in HBOS and shares in Lloyds TSB; you will possibly end up with shares in Lloyds TSB HBOS plc. What are the Government saying, or are they keeping their options open? The statement a few weeks ago about the merger was one thing, but the Government are now having to come with this great new lifeboat for the organisation that was going to help HBOS. Are we absolutely certain that, in the reality of what the Government are now proposing with this bigger lifeboat, the merger is necessary? Paragraph 48 of the Statement says that,
	"more capital is available to small institutions",
	but earlier in the Statement there is talk about the Nationwide Building Society increasing its capital base. No doubt one of the reasons why Nationwide wants its capital base to be extended is that it wants to take over two smaller building societies. Again, is there a need for that? Given the competition rules, is all this merger mania now required?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, on the last point, Nationwide will act on the basis of commercial opportunity. That is its judgment; it is nothing to do with the Government, because Nationwide is not proposing to avail itself of government funds. On the merger, the noble Lord is right to point to the difficulties, which are apparent to the whole House. The Government want the merger to take place because it would strengthen the institutions concerned. However, the noble Lord cannot expect us to underwrite the situation if the merger does not take place. We are spelling out the exact terms between the two institutions. The availability of the money depends on the merger.

Lord Higgins: My Lords, my first question for the noble Lord is simple. What is the Government's estimate of the total cost of the operation so far and how is it to be paid for? The next question is more difficult. However much taxation is increased or public expenditure is cut, there is likely to be a substantial increase in government borrowing. What is the Government's policy on funding that deficit from the public? To the extent that they fail to do so, there is likely to be a massive increase in that old-fashioned concept of the money supply and a large increase in inflation after a time lag.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord reflects in part on the question that the noble Baroness asked, so I had better make an attempt to answer that part of her reflection on this matter. Can the Government fully cost this position at present? Of course they cannot. We are making provision of the resources but we do not know the level of take-up. We are committed to producing a Pre-Budget Report in the near future, which will require us to address ourselves to the issues that the noble Lord has identified. He asked me similar questions last week, when I was obliged to be somewhat vague in my response. He will have to forgive me for that. In changing circumstances, when we are involved with proposals rather than categorical allocation of government resources, there are bound to be some aspects that are uncertain. However, we will meet his requirements when we produce the Pre-Budget Report, which will also help to identify the extent of government liability. The judgment on the categorisation of government debt is a matter for the Office for National Statistics, but it will be some time before it reaches its conclusions on that.

Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, while heartily congratulating Her Majesty's Government on the bold and decisive action that has been taken, which I hope will achieve the stability that is essential for banking in the United Kingdom and the global system of banking, I should like to ask about the trickle-down effect. It is hoped that these massive subventions to the banks will have an effect in the ordinary home, in the life of the ordinary employee and in the small business world. I have not had the opportunity to read the Financial Services Authority report, but will the noble Lord confirm that the most comprehensive and constant scrutiny will be kept up month by month to ensure that this trickle-down effect becomes a reality? Will specific performance indices be set for each bank? Will the take-up on the part of each bank be in tranches, perhaps month by month and based on the performance of the preceding month? In other words, will there be a certainty of these effects, which are so essential to the ordinary people of the United Kingdom?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that question, to which there are two dimensions. I emphasise the fact that the Government are making this money available on proper terms and conditions on a commercial basis, so there will be a return to the taxpayer from the realisation of assets or the charging of commercial rates. Those returns will not be immediate in some cases, but the Government are concerned to ensure that the taxpayer's interests are safeguarded. The other side of the noble Lord's question—the concept of trickle-down—relates to whether the ordinary citizen will benefit directly from these arrangements. If nothing had been done and the financial system had gone into catastrophic collapse, that would have been felt in every home and business in the country. We are providing a structure that gives confidence back to the financial system and a basis on which banks can give loans to small businesses, which have a regular need for such loans, and on which mortgages are safeguarded for house owners. Those are the trickle-down effects, which we should all welcome.

Lord Desai: My Lords, I congratulate my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Chancellor on the quick action that they have taken. I just add that, when the Prime Minister was Chancellor, he was very astute in not joining the euro, given the totally shambolic nonsense that is going on and the unco-ordinated action. At least we have been quick and to the point. My question is about the public debt. Is it not important that we protect the real economy as much as we can and treat increases in public debt as temporary and necessary, rather than making a totem of and trying to protect the money supply? That is exactly what drove the US economy in the great depression in the 1930s, as shown by the great monetarist, Milton Friedman. Let us not go down the path of making those mistakes and let us protect the real economy.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, as my noble friend knows and the whole House appreciates, nothing brings greater joy to No. 10 than praise from him on its economic strategy. I emphasise the important point that he has made: it is not just this Government but European Governments and the Government of the United States of America who stared into the abyss of financial institutional collapse and recognised that the only solution lay in public resources being made available for the necessary investment. I emphasise that the British model is investment in the banking system which guarantees that, in due course, the taxpayer gets a return on the strategy being pursued. I always accept the right of the Opposition to be critical, but they will be very hard pressed to construct a model that comes remotely near to challenging this one in its effectiveness and fairness for the British people.

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, last week, after a meeting between the Local Government Association and the Treasury, a statement was issued that there was no evidence that any council had acted recklessly in placing deposits with Icelandic banks. Now that we know that some council officers who should have been more prudent were placing deposits with Icelandic banks right up to the end of September—these people are highly paid professionals and not amateurs running some charity—does the Treasury still stand by the view that no reckless deposit-placing took place?
	I do not expect the Minister to know the answer to the following question now, but will he give me an undertaking that he will look into it and write to me? May we have some guidance on the role of two advisory firms, Sector Treasury Services and Butlers, which appear to have given councils advice and an A-rating for Landsbanki and Heritable virtually up to the moment that that firm bit the dust? Were those two somewhat shadowy operations remunerated in any way by Landsbanki or Heritable?
	My other question follows on from that of my noble friend Lord Newby about mortgages, to which I am afraid that I did not hear an answer. What does keeping the availability of mortgage-lending at 2007 levels mean? That was a completely wild, once-in-a-lifetime year. It would be completely inappropriate for the amount of mortgage lending by the banks to continue at that level. Part of the reason that we are in the mess that we are in is that there was that much mortgage-lending. What does it mean and how will it be enforced?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I will write to the noble Lord about his highly detailed second question, to which I do not have an answer. However, it is becoming apparent that one or two local authorities which have the resources to be well advised are overcommitted to the Icelandic banks, and there will be inevitable costs involved in that. The Government have made it clear that they do not fit into the pattern of the ordinary depositor with the limited resources of expertise that they have available.
	I hope that the noble Lord will concentrate all his intellectual power and political activity as much on constructive solutions to the problems with which we are faced as on analysing those who got it wrong. We are all too clear about who has got it wrong and they ought not to get off scot free. The Government are making it clear that we need change to the system and that is what we will effect, but we need to concentrate a great deal more on how to repair the system than on identifying who was responsible for it going wrong.
	The Financial Services Authority and the Government expect that, with the substantial amount of resources being put into banks, some priorities will be identified that reflect the priorities of the nation. There is not the slightest doubt that small and medium-sized enterprises and owner-occupiers in distress need support.

Lord Gilbert: My Lords, I suspect that, contrary to the views of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, it will be the citizens of the euro-zone countries who will criticise their Governments and ask them why they have not taken such bold and decisive action as the Government of this country. Be that as it may, I have two questions for my noble friend the Minister. First, are the Government giving advice to the banks and other financial institutions on dividend policy? If so, are they giving it to the sector as a whole or confining advice to the situation of individual institutions?
	I do not expect an answer to my second question because I understand that the Government have been thoroughly weighed down with matters of pressing urgency, but what will be the effect of all this on people's pensions? The country will need some reassurance. I would be grateful if he could give an assurance that someone will talk to the House about that before very long.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, my noble friend has identified two important areas. Given the resources that the Government are putting into specific banks, they do have a view on dividend payments. We are concerned that the resources should be used to the benefit of the economy rather than to shareholders who have sustained the institutions in the past.
	On pensions, my noble friend is right that, among the great anxieties arising from the catastrophic drop in share prices and values, the impact on pensions is significant and needs to be addressed.

Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, the Minister is inclined to brush aside—

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I am sorry. Time is up. I apologise that not everybody was able to speak.

EU: Gaza and the West Bank

Lord Dykes: asked Her Majesty's Government whether they will hold discussions with the European Union presidency and Commission to seek new initiatives to assist with the crisis in Gaza and the West Bank.
	My Lords, with the whole world preoccupied with what I would still call the western world's financial turmoil and crisis—although it has spread elsewhere as well—and with the whole world watching the campaign in the United States ahead of the 4 November elections, it would be understandable if this subject had gone off people's radar screens recently.
	However, when I originally planned this debate for around about this time of the year—that is, towards the last quarter of 2008, when the Palestinian state was supposed to have been created by what were anticipated to be fruitful negotiations—I had no idea, because anticipating the future is always impossible, that there would have been such little interest in the subject now. That is not to criticise people, but merely to state the reality that it has left the radar screen for the moment. I therefore welcome the opportunity afforded by this brief debate to bring it back on the radar as one of the most important remaining subjects for geopolitical resolution not only in the Middle East but the entire world. It has bedevilled many Governments and Ministers. The noble Lord, Lord Malloch-Brown, with his authority as a former UN official of great distinction and skill, knows a lot about this subject. He, like others, must anticipate that, somehow and somewhere, we will be able to make progress from now on.
	I make a few brief points tonight, in my Question for a short debate, in the hope that the Minister will give some answers. It has been a long time; when we had our first exchanges at the beginning of January, I well remember the Minister's very forthright answer, when he said that of course a completely genuine, wholehearted sovereign Palestinian state must be created out of these negotiations—nothing less will do. Then we had the terrible tragedies of violence in March, with more than 100 civilians in Palestine killed from Israeli Government incursions. Those mercifully and happily dropped off after that, because even the most hard-line Israeli Minister realised that it was a real dead end to pursue that kind of policy. Ever since then there has been quiet and silence, with hardly any references to the subject, although there has been plenty of speculative material in the Israeli press. There has been very little in the United States press or the election campaign about the subject and there has been very little in this country at all.
	There was an Independent editorial in March, which, sadly with justification, said towards the end:
	"Far from helping to bring about the end of the Middle East's most intractable dispute, Mr Bush deserves to go down in history as a US president who has worsened it immeasurably by wholly abandoning even the pretence that the US should act as an impartial referee in the Arab-Israeli dispute".
	Without wishing to criticise Barack Obama at all, it was characteristic of a leading American politician and a candidate for the American elections that he went to Israel for 24 hours on a visit—rightly, and I was delighted to see that—but spent only one hour visiting Palestine, which is supposed to be a side-by-side sovereign state in literally a few weeks.
	That slippage is causing great concern among many people, as I am sure the Minister will concede. This House and Parliament need answers from the Government about what is happening. I have rightly criticised President Bush; many people are disappointed with how he has reacted in sending Condoleezza Rice on endless missions, which seem to have no concrete result or progress. I admit that there will be many behind-the-scenes negotiations and talks and, therefore, a lot that cannot necessarily be revealed; that would be encouraging if the Minister could at least allude to some of the progress being made. But I have my doubts about that. I speak as a friend of Israel of many years standing, and a more candid friend now because I think that Israel faces the need for greater urgency to ensure that these negotiations are at long last fruitful.
	We have the frustrating delays of there being only a provisional, putative Prime Minister designate as head of the Kadima party after the withdrawal of the former Prime Minister Olmert. Despite his very optimistic noises in June and July when they thought they were getting close to achieving a deal, ever since then there has been a deafening silence.
	I quote, too, from a Financial Times leading article from the end of March. It has always been a normative, standard friend of Israel, as we all are. We were all delighted—or I was personally—with the 60th anniversary this year of the celebration of the Israeli state. The FT is a moderate newspaper by any standards, but it said that,
	"next week, the Arab League will re-present its spurned 2002 peace offer: Israel returns all occupied Arab land, including ... east Jerusalem ... in return for full peace ... Israel and its friends should know that only war will come from continuing to spurn peace".
	Given the new, possible provisional Administration that may arise from the coalition-building that is going on in Israel, that may appear unfair, but that is what a lot of people pessimistically now feel about the situation.
	I have a quote from Prime Minister Olmert from the end of September—this is a very striking statement, because very little had been said over that period, although we assume that there is a continuing format of more or less fortnightly negotiations going on, with senior figures in the outgoing Administration. There is a rather shaky tableau at the moment, and perhaps the Minister could give us more of a reply about the ongoing framework of these talks. Tzipi Livni herself referred to her regular meetings with the equivalent of the Palestinian Foreign Minister. We need to know more about that. At any right, on 30 September, Prime Minister Olmert said:
	"I am saying what no previous Israeli leader has ever said. We should withdraw from almost all of the territories".
	Presumably he would have to say "almost" for Israeli public opinion.
	In those exchanges earlier in the year, I asked the Minister whether he agreed—apparently he did—that more than 65 per cent of the Israeli public said that there must be talks, even with Hamas. We know that there has been the Hamas Hudna truce period suggestion, which was proposed for two years and which is still in place. The Israelis sought to ignore it originally but seem perhaps to have changed their minds about it. Coming up to date, last week the Israeli military commander of the occupied West Bank complained bitterly about the violence inflicted by extremist Israeli settlers on unarmed Palestinian residents, saying that it was getting worse and worse. There are other signs, too, of a very worrying situation, with the settlements apparently continuing to grow on the basis of a spurious formula by the Israeli authorities that there can be expansion of existing territorial footprint areas and not necessarily a brand new area. We all know how those things can be circumvented and manipulated to avoid the UN sanctions that might come if they do not respond to what the UN and the whole world community wants.
	The EU has been very disappointing in its portion of the quartet. We expected far more from it. The situation in Gaza is really desperate; it is estimated officially that well over 50 per cent of the population will be suffering directly from incipient and long-lasting malnutrition unless the territories return to normal. We pay tribute to all the NGOs, including Amnesty International, that have discussed that matter, as well as the settlements. It cannot continue to be the largest open-air prison in the world.
	It is surely now time for Israel to show generosity, as it has so much and the Palestinians have so little. Mahmoud Abbas has shown great patience in prolonging these negotiations, without any help or encouragement from the Americans. Surely those who are true friends of Israel see where the dead end is developing for that country, although it so brilliantly celebrated 60 years of existence in the summer. What if the Palestinians said that they would give up their struggle for a separate Palestinian state? President Bush originally promised it at the end of 2005 and it is already three years later. People are saying that maybe it will go into 2009 now, as the talks are difficult, and so on. But this cannot go on. The British Government should not condone or be a party to that going on, unnecessarily and unfairly. If the Palestinians renounced their objective of a separate sovereign Palestinian state with all that entailed and said that there should be one territory, whatever the structure might be—one state—the Israelis would have lost their own separate Zionist state. How blind and narrow-minded is that?
	I end by quoting from another person, whose words were reported on 28 September in a Sunday newspaper in Paris. He said:
	"This is not really a classic political conflict between two countries or peoples. The causes are above all human. For this is the story of two peoples equally and profoundly convinced—in a different historical perspective—of their right to live on the same tiny piece of middle eastern land ... It is thus necessary for both peoples to agree that both have this right. Then you follow up with all the practical points, the first one being should this be two states with two peoples or one combined state with two people ... But the solution cannot just be done by the politicians. The whole of civil society must be involved. Why should this not include musicians?".
	I quote Daniel Barenboim, of course. If this is not done, the Palestinians cannot be left in limbo without a state of their own. The UN would have to respond and persuade the Americans to avoid yet another of the 32 vetoes that they have made so far since 1968 to stop this process going ahead.
	I ask the Minister in all sincerity to give us a positive, tangible and realistic answer today about what is really happening with these negotiations and give us hope for a conclusion of this business, even if it is not at the end of the year then pretty close to it, once the American elections have been returned.

Lord Judd: My Lords, I am sure that the whole House appreciates the consistent way in which the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, keeps this issue before us—an issue that is so important not only for the people of the area but for international security as a whole. I declare an interest as a former director of Oxfam and as a member of the Friends of Oxfam, an organisation deeply involved in the area.
	To those on the ground, the peace process still seems to be a virtual rather than substantial process. It has yet to deliver for ordinary Palestinians and Israelis. Certainly, there has been progress on reforming Palestinian institutions, but that will prove largely meaningless if the core issues are not addressed. There are now 630 movement restrictions in place as against 561 in November 2007. Indeed, Peace Now, the Israeli NGO, reports that tenders for 1,761 settlement buildings have been issued since Annapolis; a 38-fold increase on the previous year. It is all in danger of becoming a tragic charade, which has urgently to stop if peace is to be achieved.
	Despite the very welcome reduction in violence by the Israeli Government and Palestinian armed groups in Gaza following the June truce, the lives of Gazans have hardly improved. Yes, increasing supplies of goods have been allowed into Gaza and Israel has allowed in more fuel, but draconian restrictions continue to remain in place for the movement of people and goods. No exports are leaving Gaza. According to the World Bank, that means that 98 per cent of all industrial operations remain closed. Some 80 per cent of the population are still dependent on aid to survive.
	Diplomats from many Governments tell aid agencies and others that Gaza will not be open until Gilad Shalit is released. They explain that the politics are too difficult because of a growing split between Hamas and Fatah and they ask what Israel will do in any case if reconciliation is achieved. Frankly, that is not good enough; it amounts to condoning or de facto legitimising collective punishment. Urgent steps must be taken to open the Kami crossing, especially for exports, and stalled UN humanitarian programmes must be allowed to resume. Most of all, the international community must actively support Palestinian reconciliation and publicly support a national unity government if it is announced.
	Of course I recognise that the UK has been very active, particularly around the quartet meeting last May, endeavouring to bring an end to the blockade of Gaza. But the Prime Minister did not mention Gaza in his speech to the Knesset during the summer; nor, on the same day that the quartet met on 26 September, did the Foreign Secretary in his speech to the Security Council. It would be helpful if my noble friend, whom I greatly respect, could tell the House what specific and effective steps the UK is demonstrably taking together with our European international partners to bring an end to the blockade.

Lord Trimble: My Lords, I too, welcome the fact that we have another debate on this issue. I must confess that I began to worry when I saw in the Motion put down by the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, reference to "new initiatives". One thing that we do not need is a new initiative. We want the existing initiatives to make progress. That is what we should focus on. We should also remember that difficult though it is to achieve, it is clear what the objective ought to be two viable states—a Jewish state and an Arab state—living side-by-side in peace. That is the objective to which we wish to see progress going.
	I was concerned towards the end of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, when he seemed to drift off towards a one-state solution, which is not a solution. It would be a disaster. Any attempt to encourage that would be wrong. If we are going to get a two-state solution, we need to have two viable parties negotiating—one on behalf of Israel and one on behalf of Palestine. At the end of the day, it will have to be done by them. Obviously, help and encouragement will be provided by the European Union and the United States and they are clearly doing that already, but there is no substitute for those two parties engaging. As I see it, the problem is the division that exists within the Palestinians between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.
	I welcome the fact that a truce was brokered by the Egyptians and that has led to a reduction in violence in and around Gaza, but some worrying signs are there. Reference was made to humanitarian assistance and the potential for humanitarian problems in Gaza, but I noticed that, recently, Israelis checking a truck carrying humanitarian aid about to go through the Kerem Shalom crossing into Gaza found two tonnes of dual-purpose fertiliser, probably intended for the creation of explosives and explosive devices for the rockets that have come from that area in the past and to some extent continue to come from that there.
	I am also concerned about reports that we heard on our own media this morning. A report on the "Today" programme said:
	"Militant groups in Gaza are re-arming, training and preparing for a possible renewal of violence".
	If it turns out that the Hamas truce is tactical, that would be the greatest disservice that could be rendered to the people of Palestine. Although I appreciate the concern of the two noble Lords who have already spoken, I think that they are looking in the wrong direction to some extent. What we need is persuasion on Hamas to change and to facilitate genuine negotiations. The practical issues that have been mentioned so far are all capable of resolution. What we do not have are people who are committed to getting an agreement and speaking for the Palestinians. The potential exists for a solution. A solution along the lines that this House would welcome is one that the majority of Israelis now want—although not all. The majority of Israelis now want an arrangement that this House can be content with, but what we do not have is a viable party on the other side.

Baroness Tonge: My Lords, I first express my disgust that this House spent three and a half hours discussing one amendment to the Counter-Terrorism Bill and yet we have one dinner hour only to discuss a problem that lies at the very roots of terrorism itself.
	A recent report from the UN rapporteur on human rights said that settlement expansion, the wall, checkpoints and military areas have rendered 40 per cent of the West Bank inaccessible or unusable for Palestinians. Forty per cent of their original meagre share of Palestine is now useless. Nothing changes there except for the worst. The appalling humanitarian situation in Gaza is well known to noble Lords and I will not detail it, but only today I had a report from the UK branch of the Welfare Association of which I am a board member showing how aid is becoming less and less effective because of the lack of availability of goods and water. Everything is difficult to obtain, costs go up and projects are rendered near impossible. The UK Government protest but do nothing. The EU and the United Nations do likewise. Why? My efforts to find out why have got me into big trouble with the lobby of Israel's supporters and I am sure I will again many times, but I take heart in the truly courageous activities of Jewish groups such as Jews for Justice for Palestinians and Peace Now. I hope that the House will join me in paying tribute to Irene Bruegel, the founder of Jews for Justice who died recently. She was an inspiration to fair-minded Israelis and Palestinians alike.
	Peace Now activist Professor Zeev Sternhell was recently injured in a pipe bomb attack on his home by militant settlers, yet continues to campaign for a fair, two-state solution based on 1967 borders. Israel now has her own home-grown terrorists who are active against the Palestinians around the settlements but also against anyone in Israel who dares to support a two-state solution, like the activists in Peace Now.
	I will use my remaining time to ask some direct questions of the Minister. What is Tony Blair doing exactly? Is there any progress to report? When will Hamas be brought into talks? If the answer is the usual, "When they agree to the principles set by the quartet", why does the same not apply to Israel? What action are we taking to freeze settlement expansion, which Israel has promised? Why has the European Union extended the EU-Israel agreement when Israel has not fulfilled the legal obligations originally imposed? Finally, does the Minister agree that Israel must realise that long-term peace requires her to abandon the Zionist's dream of a greater Israel and make peace with the Palestinians before it is too late?

Lord Luce: My Lords, land is at the heart of the intractable dispute to which the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, has referred. I therefore address my remarks simply to the issue of Israeli settlement policy in Arab-occupied territory post-1967. This is steadily undermining any prospect for longer-term peace. We all know that the Balfour declaration led to the creation of a Jewish homeland, but we also know that the declaration said that,
	"nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".
	Ever since, particularly since the Second World War, there has been a steady erosion of those rights.
	We know from the United Nations Office for Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs in occupied Palestine that there are now 500,000 settlers in this area and 250,000 of them live illegally in eastern Jerusalem. As the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, said, 40 per cent of the West Bank is now made inaccessible and unusable for residential, agricultural, commercial and municipal development. The settlements began in this area in the 1970s, and have grown relentlessly ever since. We have a kind of fragmented Palestine—a kind of Middle Eastern Bantustan—which, ominously, was welcomed, according to a report in the Financial Times last week, by the leader of the Likud party, Mr Netanyahu.
	Being deprived of land and homeland breeds despair and, in turn, violence, making the long-term peace settlement even more difficult to achieve. We all know that this policy contravenes international law. Article 49 of the fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring,
	"parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies".
	It contravenes numerous Security Council resolutions and endless appeals from the European Union and the international community; indeed, the road-map process in 2003 demanded a cessation of settlements. Above all, the Americans give something like $3 billion a year, yet fail to stop this settlement policy. James Baker, the Secretary of State in the early 1990s, said:
	"I don't think that there is any bigger obstacle to peace than the settlement activity that continues not only unabated but at an enhanced pace".
	I am a great believer in the wonderful aspects of the Jewish faith that its people offer to the world. I greatly admire the inspiring leadership of the Chief Rabbi, Sir Jonathan Sacks. In a lecture last week, he pointed out that Jews believe that what we possess, we hold in trust for future generations. The people of Israel must ask themselves how that admirable belief can be reconciled with taking other people's land.
	In the past few years we have seen a deplorable increase in anti-Semitism which I utterly condemn, as will everyone in this Chamber. Racism is despicable, but Israelis must be careful not to give an excuse to racists to foment anti-Semitism by their land settlement policy in Arab-occupied territory. I hope that the Minister will say what the Government and the European Union are doing about this.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, and agree with him that there must be movement on—indeed a freezing of—settlement activity. I also note, however, that he directed all his criticisms at Israel. To be fair, there must surely be movement on the other side as well.
	I remind your Lordships that European Sub-Committee C produced a report in July 2007 on the European Union's role in the Middle East peace process, and concluded that the EU must now play,
	"a more active and imaginative role in the search for peace in the Middle East".
	So what role can be commended to the Minister? First, that the EU is by far the largest provider of aid to the Palestinians must surely give leverage. We should therefore continue and enhance our humanitarian aid. We should encourage President Abbas to work closely with Arab colleagues. Indeed, one of the positive features of the past few years, from 2002, has been greater engagement of Arab countries in the region, encouraging them to promote an internal reconciliation process that would allow the creation of a technocratic Government, probably under Salam Fayyad, in the Palestinian territories and an agreed date for elections for the Palestinian presidency and the PLC.
	There should be an attempt to give a widening mandate to President Abbas to negotiate with Israel on the basis of the quartet resolution. There should be preparation for the opening of border crossings between Gaza and Egypt, seeking to negotiate an international oversight and monitoring mission at the crossings, underwritten by Egypt, the Palestinian Authority and Israel. Of course, the European Union is already very involved, but this should allow controlled movement of goods and people, and the co-ordination of the three main parties on anti-terrorism and anti-arms smuggling activity. We should build on progress in expanding the PA's security capacities. I note that former Prime Minister Blair was in Jenin. Jenin is a model of that activity, which also occurs in Nablus and the Hebron area.
	Finally, the EU should support an economic package, including economically driven security arrangements, financial support, economic infrastructure and private business support, all in preparation for the conference to be hosted in London in December of this year. Time permits only those headings, but that is quite a massive agenda in itself. The stakes are high. I am convinced that the EU can play a most positive role, and hope that some of these suggestions can be furthered by my noble friend.

Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, I shall only make three points in this necessarily short but timely debate. First, it must surely be a high priority for the European Union to ensure that the incoming US Administration really throw their weight behind the negotiation of a comprehensive package to bring a durable peace to Israel and its Arab neighbours. Too often in the past, new US Presidents have simply put the Middle East peace process into the "too difficult" tray, or have sent their Secretary of State off on a half-hearted quest for peace, only to withdraw their support at the first whiff of opposition in Congress.
	This time, the negative implications of continuing tension and conflict over Palestine for all the other US foreign policy objectives in the Middle East region—for the stability of Iraq and the Lebanon, for the handling of Iran and the fight against terrorism—must be even clearer than they have been for the past several years. So the European Union could be pushing against a less firmly closed door than in the past, but push it surely must, and I hope that the Minister will assure us that it will.
	Secondly, I urge that the European Union pursues a genuinely inclusive approach to the negotiating process, not allowing itself yet again to be held captive to a set of rigid preconditions for involvement on the Arab side, as has been the case in recent years. Of course, it is right to insist that acts of violence against Israel by Hamas must cease, but there is now a de facto ceasefire in Gaza. Of course, actual negotiations must be contained within the framework of the Arab peace plan and not simply go back to square one. Of course, Hamas must in the end be prepared to sit at the negotiating table with Israel and to respect its right to security, but these requirements should no longer be a barrier even to talking to Hamas and seeking to draw it into a serious negotiating process.
	Thirdly, the EU could play a much more prominent and proactive role in any eventual settlement arrangements that are agreed. After all, no third party stands to gain more from a Middle East peace settlement than the European Union, and none stands to lose more from the continuation of the present stasis. Hitherto, the European Union has been a generous donor to the Palestinians and has backed a number of imaginative, if somewhat marginal, schemes to underpin the peace process, but has left all the running on the main issues to be made by the US. Is it not time for the European Union to indicate the role it could play in any post-settlement security arrangements for the region? Is it not also time for the EU to sketch out the sort of deeper and wider relationship it would wish to develop with Israel in such circumstances? Is it not essential that the EU pulls together all the disparate elements of its policies towards the Middle East peace process, and those of its member states, into a concerted and coherent effort, and not just sit around waiting for the Lisbon treaty to come into force?
	I know that the points I have raised are not easy or simple ones to handle, but the present opportunity for the European Union to turn over a new leaf in its involvement in the peace process will not last for long. It would be good to hear from the Minister that we do not intend to let it slip, as we have so often done in the past.

Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, just over three months have passed since our previous similar debate—three months of relentless occupation and three more months of despair for the Palestinian people. So far this year 436 Palestinians have been killed directly in the conflict, mostly by the Israeli Defense Forces, but some by settlers. This compares with 29 Israelis killed in the same period. The stark difference between these two figures shows clearly the balance of force used, even if the figures are looking a little better at present.
	This year so far the number of checkpoints and closures has increased by 12 per cent. We heard other figures earlier. Many Palestinian homes have been destroyed while more Israeli settlements have been built in the Occupied Territories—the noble Lord, Lord Luce, gave us figures in that regard—contrary to international agreements and international law, deliberately making the peace process more difficult, as he eloquently said. It is no wonder that Palestinians lose faith in the ability of their leaders to deliver a peaceful life.
	Like the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, I read Mr Olmert's remarks given in an interview with the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth a week or so ago, in which he said clearly that Israel should agree to return most of the occupied territory, including East Jerusalem. As others have said, it is a pity that he did not say that before he resigned, but at least it shows realism about what is necessary for peace. We all know the outlines of a peace agreement with two viable states, but what is happening to the peace process? That is what we are asking the Minister to bring us up to date on. What has Tony Blair been able to achieve in his very difficult mission in Palestine? We await to hear that with interest.
	Like the Psalmist, we all,
	"pray for the peace of Jersusalem",
	but oppression will not achieve it. Negotiation and agreement can and, I believe, will.

Lord Hylton: My Lords, with diplomatic friends I visited Jerusalem, Gaza and Nablus last July. Nablus was, and I believe still is, almost sealed off by Israeli forces, with access on foot through a humiliating checkpoint. Gaza remains an open-air prison, with restricted access from the north and almost no movement to or from Egypt through the Rafah crossing. Gaza still has no air or sea port. The successful ceasefire has allowed a small increase in supplies by land of fuel and other essentials. No exports are moving out of Gaza, hence the massive unemployment, dependence on food aid and almost certain malnourishment among children. Because the local water supplies are polluted by salt, kidney diseases are common. In spite of all those problems, some normal life continues; we visited a joyful graduation ceremony at the university.
	Since last summer, it has been obvious that the Gaza ceasefire should be extended to the whole of the West Bank. Alas, that has barely been discussed. Will the Government devote some effort and energy to that matter? Will they try harder to secure the release from detention in Israel of some 40 Palestinian parliamentarians and others who are still held without charge?
	Our Government and the quartet's special representative have set out to improve the economic situation of Palestinians. That has proved an impossible task while Gaza remains blockaded and the West Bank is divided by Israeli checkpoints, which have increased in number since the Annapolis conference.
	When will the Government give a full account of their policy towards Israel and Palestine? They cannot claim that it has been in any way successful. Fifteen years of negotiations by the PLO and then the PA have not ended a military occupation that has lasted for 41 years. Increasing colonisation of the West Bank has inevitably led to despair and violence, as Prime Minister Olmert recently recognised. How much has this country spent since the Oslo agreements to shore up a disastrous status quo? The total world amount of aid and relief to Palestinians has been put at $9 billion.
	Why has Hamas been demonised, when it contains some of the most well educated, honest and consistent politicians in the Arab world? Why were we so cool about the Arab League initiative? Why did we not welcome the Palestinian Government of national unity? Why are we still relying on the largely unreformed Fatah party, which is now internally split? Her Majesty's Government have a great deal to explain.

Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, we are debating tonight a very sad and complex problem. I have always believed that the big mistake that Israel made historically was when, having won the major wars in the past, it was not more magnanimous in giving away territory, taking the long view and seeking a settlement. We are all paying the price today, including Israel. That failure has led to increasing bitterness over the years, the increasing militancy of settlers and the increasing militancy of Hamas.
	In the very frank interview that has been referred to by my noble friend Lord Dykes and the noble Lord, Lord Cope, Ehud Olmert, the recently retired Israeli Prime Minister, not only said that they should give away more territory; he said:
	"I read the words spoken by our retired generals, and I say, how is it possible that they have not learned anything and have not forgotten anything ... With them, it is all about tanks and land and controlling territories and controlled territories and this hilltop and that hilltop. All these things are worthless".
	One only wishes, as has been said, that he had said those things when he was Prime Minister.
	Yesterday I talked to my cousin in Israel, who emigrated 25 years ago. He is a headmaster in a boarding school of 250 pupils. He is very aware but is not politically active. He sees Hamas as a very cynical enemy. The feeling in Israel is that Israel completely pulled out from Gaza but that was answered only by rockets. The public in Israel are dismayed by corrupt politicians, and there is a mood of pessimism. They believe that they have no one to negotiate with, the PLO being a spent force. My cousin accepts that, ultimately, Israel will have to make major territorial concessions, and he is also particularly worried about the increasing right-wing trend among youth.
	Today we have bitterness and mistrust, not only between Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank, not only, sadly, between Jewish and Arab communities in Israel, but between the PLO and Hamas; that is a nightmare situation for anyone attempting to negotiate a lasting settlement, whether from Europe or elsewhere.
	In a few months there will be new Administrations in America and in Israel. Thankfully, Tzipi Livni is seen as an honest politician, but she will have an extremely difficult task in putting a coalition together and then trying to negotiate a lasting settlement. We can only pray that she and the Palestinian leaders reach an accommodation. It cannot come a moment too soon for many Israelis, who live in fear, and most Palestinians, who live in misery.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, for initiating this debate. We should not simply return to this topic only when a fresh horror from the Middle East is reported on the news. We cannot forget the security fears of the Israelis, and the division of Palestinians is ongoing.
	Your Lordships debated this subject on 2 July, as my noble friend Lord Cope said, when the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Malloch-Brown, assured the House that,
	"the Middle East peace process continues to be a high priority for this Government".—[Official Report, 2/7/08; col. 319.]
	Can the Minister tell the House what more has been done by the Government since then?
	It is nearly a year since the Annapolis conference. The EU, as one of the quartet, backed the conference and the joint declaration issued at its conclusion. How has the EU contributed to realising those aspirations, which were set out with much hope in the declaration? As a major donor to the Palestinian territories, the EU should be at the forefront of efforts to alleviate the desperate situation in which many Palestinians find themselves. All of us here realise that security and prosperity are vital to finding a lasting peace. As the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, asked, what has the European Union been doing in these areas?
	We hope to hear that the Government and the EU, of which France holds the presidency, are actively involve in diplomacy with other states which have an interest or an influence in the region. Now that the Palestinian leadership is split and weakened, it is important that others can be prevailed upon to contribute in a positive manner and not to exacerbate the splits. The Arab world should be encouraged to act in the best interests of the Palestinians, not in a way that plays to the gallery at home. We watch with interest the reconciliation talks between Hamas and Fatah.
	Ehud Olmert and Mahmoud Abbas had committed themselves to fortnightly meetings. Will these continue in the light of Mr Olmert's resignation? Indeed, what contact have the Government had with Israel's Prime Minister-designate, Tzipi Livni? The fragile peace process is very precious. I hope that the Government are doing everything possible to nurture it.
	This debate has highlighted faults on both sides of this difficult ongoing problem. We heard of a fresh horror on the "Today" programme this morning, which was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Trimble. It contained the most chilling interview with an 18 year-old girl—a proud potential suicide bomber who was willing to kill innocent women and children. What would the Government's response have been if she had been targeting the UK?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, for initiating this debate. I reassure him and other noble Lords that the Middle East peace process continues to be a high priority for the Government. I know that it is a topic of great interest to this House. The UK remains committed to a comprehensive peace in the Middle East and is working closely with its EU partners to offer all possible support to the Annapolis process. The EU has a critical role to play in this. The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, said that the Government had a lot to answer for. I am not sure that I accept that, but I certainly accept that we have been asked a lot of questions tonight, and I will do my best to answer as many of them as I can.
	The situation for the Palestinians and the ongoing peace negotiations continue to pose tremendous difficulties. It remains as important as ever that we progress on both if we are to build a better future for Palestinians inside a viable Palestinian state. The UK and the EU will, therefore, continue to play a leading role in the international community in supporting the peace process.
	Although I accept the impatience of many noble Lords who have spoken about the fact that Annapolis is almost a year old, it is worth reminding ourselves that a year ago, before Annapolis, there were no negotiations. Seven years had been lost without real talks. The conference changed that. Talks began and both sides restated their commitment to their road map obligations. The conference was also a signal of renewed international commitment to the peace process. It was encouraging for a particularly strong Arab attendance. Our own Foreign Secretary and the EU attended to lend our support.
	I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, that the EU political association agreement is intended as a technical agreement; it is not meant to carry a political message. Indeed, in announcing it, the importance of the political situation as regards Palestinians was specifically marked out and the agreement was in no way intended to prejudice progress on that.
	The EU remains committed to ensuring that there is progress in the negotiations. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have visited the region and they speak often with the key players. Similarly at the EU level, the Middle East peace process is frequently discussed at Foreign Ministers' meetings, most recently at the September informal meeting. The EU special representative, Marc Otte, spends a great deal of time in the region, and Javier Solana for the Council and Benita Ferrero-Waldner for the Commission are also deeply engaged.
	The noble Lord, Lord Dykes, asked about the progress of discussions between the parties, referring to the fact that there was an original commitment for fortnightly meetings. I think it is correct to say that the last meeting between Mr Olmert and Mr Abbas occurred in the middle of September. Since then, Mrs Livni has met the chief Palestinian negotiators. While the change of government in Israel has inevitably slowed down the momentum of meetings, it is very clear that both sides are making every effort to keep the momentum of these talks moving.
	Throughout, we on the outside have been consistent in our message: we support the Annapolis process and, as part of this, expect all parties to fulfil their road map obligations. Of course, the talks have moved more slowly than the optimists hoped, but they have not collapsed as the pessimists predicted, so we will continue to build on the progress made.
	Part of supporting the talks is tackling actions which undermine confidence. The most striking example of that is Israeli settlement construction—a policy which serves to break down trust and make a final deal even harder. Settlement building, whether in east Jerusalem or the West Bank, is illegal and contrary to Israeli commitments, and we have made it clear that it must stop. Even since Annapolis, according to Peace Now, the number of tenders for construction in the settlements has increased by more than 500 per cent. In public and private, we, as the UK and the EU, have made clear our opposition to this.
	Another key plank of our support for the peace process is building Palestinian institutions that can govern effectively. In December last year, the international community pledged an extraordinary $7.7 billion at the Paris donor conference in support of the Palestinians based on the Palestinian Authority's Reform and Development Plan. This plan, designed by Prime Minister Fayyad, offers a route to substantial reform of Palestinian institutions so that the Palestinian Authority can deliver essential services to Palestinians more effectively. The UK committed £243 million in support over three years, linked to political progress, which amounted to a substantial increase in the Government's assistance. The European Commission pledged more than $1 billion over the next three years, making it the single biggest donor to the Palestinian people.
	We all know that the security sector is particularly important. Israel has legitimate security concerns but it is better for all if these can be met by Palestinians policing Palestinians. Our European partners have been very involved in this. On 24 June, Germany hosted a conference in Berlin to galvanise international support in this area. We announced that we would support it and have set money aside for security sector reform, including improving civil justice and public prosecution.
	The EU has a leading role in training the Palestinian civil police and the UK has been a long-standing contributor to that civil police training mission. We currently provide three police officers to the mission and have allocated £1.2 million of our funding to support Palestinian policing needs this year.
	We also support the US effort to reform the Palestinian national security forces, led by its security co-ordinator, General Dayton. There is obviously a long way to go, but as we are seeing in Jenin particularly, which has been the focus of our efforts, we are trying to bring together security and economic development, including co-operation between Israeli and Palestinian security forces. We think that it is showing some positive results, which we hope may prove a broader model for co-operation between both Israeli and Palestinian security forces, and that this more integrated approach will deal with economic development as well as security issues.

Lord Dykes: Is not the sad reality that these are exactly the same things as the Minister was outlining last January? Nothing has gone forward. There is no progress. He must give us more exciting answers than he is giving tonight.

Lord Malloch-Brown: I understand the noble Lord's impatience, but every example that I have recently given are events that occurred in June this year. I confess that progress is slow, but it is not the case that nothing has happened since January.
	I was asked by a number of noble Lords what Tony Blair has been up to. Again, there is progress to report. His last visit was just a week ago, on 7 October. He continues to push forward with his confidence-building measures. The noble Lord is correct to express frustration that it is more of the same, if you like, but in a situation where there is no broad breakthrough on a peace agreement, perhaps incremental progress is the best we can hope for. Since January—I take the noble Lord's point—the UK has been a key partner in the Palestine investment conference, an initiative supported strongly by Mr Blair which was held in Bethlehem in May. We have worked since then with the World Bank to try to get access to investment for Palestinian companies. In the light of that, and looking forward, on 15 December we will be holding an investment conference here in London to encourage investment and build UK-Palestinian business relations.
	I was asked why the Government did not more specifically mention Gaza in several recent overseas speeches. Last week in the other place, the Foreign Secretary said:
	"There remains an urgent imperative to improve the access for humanitarian supplies, commercial goods and people".—[Official Report, Commons, 7/10/08; col. 122.]
	Of course it needs to be about more than just humanitarian supplies. A hand-to-mouth existence will not lift Gazans out of poverty. Without crossings open for people and commercial goods, Gaza cannot lift itself out of economic decline. Israel must allow more in and more out, and we and our EU colleagues will continue to press Israel to do so.
	The ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas—another new development in recent months—is welcome. We commend Egypt for its work on the ceasefire. It is good news that it has held so far. But this cessation of violence is only one step. In that regard, the retention of Gilad Shalit in captivity does not allow that to be built on, but neither does the retention of Palestinian parliamentarians in jail without trial.
	This has been a year of incremental progress; I plead guilty to the charge of the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, on that score. There is certainly no reason for great optimism at this stage. However, we remain absolutely committed to this peace process, which remains a core objective of Britain's foreign policy. We view ourselves and the EU as having particular responsibilities in the coming months as the United States goes through a change of Administration, with the inevitable loss of attention and focus that that can often mean on foreign policy issues. We will try to make sure that the momentum of peace-making continues through the arrival of a new Government in Israel and that all sides are left in no doubt that only a just peace can end the terrible tragedy of the Middle East.

Counter-Terrorism Bill

House again in Committee.
	Schedule 2 [Amendments relating to period of pre-charge detention]:

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 31A:
	Schedule 2, page 75, line 28, leave out "(in Scotland, of the Crown Agent)"

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: This amendment and Amendment No. 31B are detailed, technical probing amendments. I rather suspect that they are now academic. I shall not move them.

[Amendment No. 31A not moved.]
	Schedule 2 negatived.
	Clause 24 [Report of operational need for further extension of maximum period of detention]:
	[Amendment No. 31B not moved.]
	Clause 24 negatived.
	Clause 25 negatived.
	Clause 26 [Notification of chairmen of certain committees]:
	[Amendment No. 32 not moved.]
	Clause 26 negatived.
	Clause 27 [Statement to be laid before Parliament]:
	[Amendment No. 33 not moved.]
	Clause 27 negatived.
	Clauses 28 to 33 negatived.

Baroness Stern: moved Amendment No. 34:
	After Clause 33, insert the following new Clause—
	"Extension of detention under section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000
	(1) Part 3 of Schedule 8 to The Terrorism Act 2000 (c. 11) (extension of detention under section 41) is amended as follows.
	(2) In paragraph 29 (warrants of further detention) after sub-paragraph (6) insert—
	"(7) Nothing in this Part is to be read as requiring the judicial authority to act in a manner inconsistent with the right of the specified person to a fully judicial procedure under Article 5(4) of the European Convention on Human Rights."
	(3) In paragraph 31 (notice) after paragraph (d) insert—
	"(e) a statement of the suspicion which forms the basis for the person's original arrest and continued detention, and(f) the gist of the material on which the suspicion is based."
	(4) Before paragraph (a) of paragraph 32(1) (grounds for extension) insert—
	"(za) there are reasonable grounds for believing that the person has been involved in the commission, preparation or instigation of a terrorist offence,".
	(5) For sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 33 (representation) substitute—
	"(1) The person to whom an application relates shall be entitled—
	(a) to appear in person before the judicial authority and make oral representations about the application,(b) to be legally represented by counsel at the hearing,(c) to legal aid for such representation,(d) to be represented by a special advocate at any closed part of the hearing of the application, and(e) through his representative, to cross examine the investigating officer."
	(6) After sub-paragraph (3)(b) of paragraph 33 insert—
	"(ba) if the judicial authority is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for believing that the exclusion of the person or his representative is necessary in order to avoid any of the harms set out in paragraph 34(2)(a) to (g).""

Baroness Stern: Amendment No. 34 is in my name and that of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, and the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Dubs. I imagine that the Committee has now registered that we are all members of the Joint Committee on Human Rights.
	Amendments Nos. 34 and 35 reflect concerns that the committee have felt for some considerable time about the safeguards that are in place when pre-charge detention of between 14 and 28 days is being authorised. The Minister will no doubt be grateful to know that these are probing amendments through which we seek his views on what the committee sees as the need for more adequate safeguards.
	The committee has done some detailed work on the arrangements surrounding pre-charge detention. The Minister is no doubt aware of this work and has read it with great interest. I shall say a little more about the detail. Between 14 and 28 days, if detention is to be continued, there has to be a hearing before a judge,and it is the nature of these hearings that has caused the committee concern. In its 25th report of the Session—its 12th report on counterterrorism—it says:
	"We do not accept that the current arrangements for judicial authorisation of extended pre-charge detention satisfy the stringent requirements either of habeas corpus or Article 5 ECHR".
	The committee has identified three basic problems. First, the suspect and his or her lawyer can be excluded from the hearing, so parts of the hearing can be closed to them. Secondly, information can be put before the judge that neither the suspect nor his or her lawyer can see. Thirdly, the committee was concerned about the narrowness of the questions that the court is required to answer when it decides whether or not to authorise further detention.
	The committee's second report of this Session therefore recommended a statutory regime to govern the hearings that give warrants for further detention. We suggested that there should be more stringent requirements about the information that must be contained in the statutory notice given to a suspect before such a hearing; that there should be measures to define more closely the power to withhold information from the suspect and his or her lawyer; that there should be provisions for special advocates to represent the interests of the suspect at any closed part of the hearing; that there should be express provision for the right of the suspect to cross-examine the investigation officer; and that any restrictions on disclosure or participation are subject to the overriding requirement that the hearing of the application be fair. We have attempted to put those requirements into our amendment. I hope very much that the Minister will feel able to enter this discussion with us about how far the safeguards for extending detention from 14 to 28 days are satisfactory and in accordance with our human rights requirements. I beg to move.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I have put my name to this amendment, as well as being a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, has said everything that needs to be said. I should like to add one or two points. Although this issue may now seem academic in one sense, it is not at all academic because the Home Secretary's Statement in the other place has indicated that a Bill is in the offing, if and when it is needed, which would extend the period of detention without trial beyond 42 days.
	I deeply regret the part of the Home Secretary's Statement, which says that she deeply regrets,
	"that some have been prepared to ignore the terrorist threat, for fear of taking a tough but necessary decision".
	That is a most impertinent thing for her to have said if it refers to those of us in the opposition parties and on the Cross Benches in this House, and those on the Back Benches from the Labour Party who have disagreed with the Government's judgment.
	I, working with Roy Jenkins in 1974, was involved in fashioning the first prevention against terrorism Bill. I was much involved also with advising him, as he recalls in his memoirs, on effective steps to counter terrorism. The notion that those who disagree with the Home Secretary's judgment are prepared to ignore the terrorist threat is preposterous. I am very sorry that that was said. I very much hope that that is brought to her attention by her admirable advisers.
	This amendment seeks to introduce a limited but further form of natural justice into the procedure. I shall not make a long speech, but, as everyone knows, it is a cardinal principle of our system of justice that you are entitled to know the case against you, to have a fair opportunity to rebut it, to have proper access to legal advice and to be sure that there are reasonable grounds for the conduct of which you are suspected to have been guilty.
	My only direct experience of these procedures was on the related issue of the proscribed organisations procedure where I once represented a body which was trying to avoid proscription. As its advocate, I am bound to say that a very nasty taste was left in my mouth when it said, "We are going to withdraw from the proceedings because we do not believe any longer in British justice"—and it did. Having talked to some of the special advocates, I know that there is considerable concern among many of them about the present procedure.
	What this seeks to do is obvious to anyone reading Amendment No. 34, in particular, and I shall not add to it. We would be very interested to know the current view of the Home Office. Although we will not divide the Committee today, this probing amendment is important for the future.

The Earl of Onslow: In his speech on Amendment No. 29, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, mentioned an incidence of what we dislike in the clause and why we wish to change it. I think I am right in saying that he spoke of extensions for four different people, all submitted with exactly the same wording basically along the lines of, "We think he's done something naughty and we need to go on". Those were not the exact words, but the implication of what he said. We really must get out of the habit of not telling people what the charge against them is. It is an ancient liberty which should be protected, and I hope that when the noble Lord comes to reply, he can give us some satisfaction on this point. If not, we will have to go back to the barricades on Report.
	Amendments Nos. 35 and 36 are in this group. Amendment No. 36 provides for the:
	"Lower threshold for charging in terrorism cases".
	I am not a lawyer, although I see quite a few legal eagles around the place who will either put me right or shut me up, but it seems that this would make the threshold charge clear to anyone who reads it. To me this clause is a pretty clear statement of what one wants the threshold charge to be. Obviously as I put my name to this amendment, I support it and wish to draw the attention of noble Lords to it.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: As a non-member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, I express my sympathy for my noble friend's amendment. I have long been worried that the judge who has to make the decision to extend the period of detention does not really have the material on which to make a proper decision. My solution to this quite important problem would be to create a new appointment of an independent commissioner who would be entitled to attend interviews at Paddington Green in all terrorist cases. His function would be similar to that which was once fulfilled by Sir Louis Blom-Cooper at the holding centres in Northern Ireland, and proved extremely effective. This new commissioner—I do not know what he should be called—should be entitled, whenever he wants, to attend interviews at Paddington Green to see how well the police are getting on the with the job with which they are charged. However, the important point is that he should also be entitled to attend the hearing before the judge at which the prosecution makes an application for an extension of time. From his independent position, he would then be able to put the judge in a position to say how well in his view the police were getting on with the job.
	As the noble Lord, Lord West, will remember, I suggested this idea many moons ago. At first it received what I would almost say was a good deal of support from the government Benches, but when I pressed it, it somehow did not get any further. But in the light of my noble friend's amendment, I have thought seriously that I might bring this back at a later stage because it would be a simpler and probably cheaper way of achieving the objectives that she has in mind.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I follow what my noble friend Lord Lester said. We welcome the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, into our midst today, but it appears that he has brought with him some of the spin that we so deplored in the Administration of the previous Prime Minister. When the Home Secretary says, "I deeply regret that some have been prepared to ignore the terrorist threat for fear of taking a tough but necessary decision in relation to our deliberations today", it is clear that spin has come back into the Government's armoury. I deeply resent the suggestion that we have ignored the terrorist threat by our decision. I have made the point over and over again that we oppose the proposals put forward by the Government because we believe that they would increase the terrorist threat by alienating a significant part of the community of this country. We feared that what they were doing was more likely to increase terrorism than otherwise. We on these Benches have no fear of taking tough and necessary decisions and I suggest we have an election so that we can be over there to take those decisions.

Lord Lyell: I apologise to the Committee. I came in late, listened to the interesting and wise words of my noble friend Lord Onslow—there are more to come—and I was delighted to hear from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. My noble friend referred to Amendment No. 36. Subsections (3) and (4) of the proposed new clause seems to put this issue in lay-man terms. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew knows, I am a mere chartered accountant so I have no major or professional interest in this part of the Bill. However, I was interested to see that proposed new subsection (4) encapsulates much of what we were discussing and voting on earlier. It is particularly important and I am sure the Minister will be able to give major consolation to both my noble friend and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd.

Lord Dubs: My noble friend Lord Mandelson has not made his maiden speech—he was introduced to the House only a few hours ago—and I am surprised that he is already being attacked.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: Let me make it clear that I am not attacking the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson. I shall be very interested to hear his maiden speech. I am attacking the introduction, once again, of spin as the Government try to explain away the decision that we took today.

Lord Dubs: There are more important things to discuss tonight than that, but I cannot understand why the noble Lord mentioned my noble friend Lord Mandelson at all if he was not proceeding to attack him. Certainly the juxtaposition of his criticism of spin and the name of my noble friend Lord Mandelson seemed to be very close indeed. He is not going to win that discussion.
	Amendment No. 71 is concerned with granting bail in terrorism cases. As I understand it, bail cannot be granted in terrorism cases. The point of the amendment is to probe what the Government have to say in response to a suggestion that in certain and, I am sure, limited circumstances it might be appropriate for the court to order pre-charge bail. It may not happen very often and would have to be handled sensitively—clearly, for the most serious offences it would not be appropriate—but there might be a situation when it would be sensible. I hope my noble friend will comment on it when he replies.

Baroness Neville-Jones: First, I share some of the sentiments that have just been expressed by the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Thomas, and I shall give more of our reaction tomorrow when the Statement is repeated in this House. Secondly, some of the amendments we are discussing, which are based on the work of the Joint Committee, are very interesting and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, made an interesting suggestion. We will think about these and come back to them on Report.

Lord Mayhew of Twysden: On the basis of some experience in Northern Ireland, I support the suggestion made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, about a counterpart to the commissioner appointed to review procedures in the holding centres in Northern Ireland. That post was established in my time and was held by Mr Louis Blom-Cooper QC, who at a very early stage established the full confidence of all concerned. It was effective, it was cheap and it worked extremely well. I add that as an addendum.

Lord West of Spithead: I hope that I have never given the impression that I have had any view in this House other than that all of us have the interests and the safety of our nation and our people in mind. I might have different views as to how that should be achieved but that is very healthy and is what happens here. I would be horrified if I thought that any of us thought otherwise. I hope that I have never done anything to give that impression and I would be shocked if I had.

The Earl of Onslow: Will the Minister please inform the Home Secretary that that is his view, with which I completely concur? She was not exactly polite and rather disingenuous in what she said; I am being polite and House of Lords in the way in which I criticise her.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: While I appreciate that the Minister usually expresses very positive sentiments, he said something which surprised me. In his summing up, he said that it was all very well for those who would never be in government to vote like that. Perhaps he was referring to the Cross Benches or perhaps he was taking a particularly optimistic view of his own party's position. However, that statement was not one which I would normally imagine him making.

Lord West of Spithead: The noble Baroness should not assume that I automatically meant her party. Something I have come across throughout my career is that people who have responsibility for something often have a slightly different view of it. That was all I meant.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, said that the amendments were exploratory, and I shall take them all together. On Amendment No. 34, we believe that extension hearings are already fully adversarial and that most of the proposals put forward in the amendments are already covered in existing provisions on the extension of detention in Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000.
	It is already a requirement that public authorities act in accordance with the ECHR under the Human Rights Act 1998. Nothing in Schedule 8 might require a judicial authority to act in any way other than compatibly with Article 5.4 or any other convention right, so the proposed new paragraph 29(7) is completely unnecessary. The extension hearings are a mechanism by which we give effect to Article 5.4. They provide a judicial hearing under which the lawfulness of the suspect's detention is reviewed.
	Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000 already provides for the detained person to make written or oral representations and be legally represented. Extension hearings apply only to people held on suspicion of terrorist offences or involvement in terrorist activity in any event. The prosecution must demonstrate to the judge that there are reasonable grounds for believing that the further detention is necessary, that the investigation is being conducted diligently and expeditiously and why more time is needed to obtain, preserve, examine or analyse relevant evidence.
	Sometimes an ex parte hearing—closed part—is required during the application process to authorise the withholding of information from the detainee. These are not routine and can be ordered only on limited and proportionate grounds. They are only a part of the process and are closed for a reason: for example, to prevent evidence being destroyed or that others might be alerted to the detail of the investigations. The judge may also exclude the detainee from part of the application hearing itself under paragraph 33. The grounds on which this exclusion may be made are left to the discretion of the judge. This process has been endorsed by the House of Lords in the case of Ward vPolice Service of Northern Ireland. The detainee may need to be excluded where, for example, the judge wants to examine with the police what further lines of inquiry they wish to put to the suspect in interview. The police are entitled to withhold this information from the suspect until the interview itself; therefore, only by excluding the suspect could the judge examine the legitimacy of this reason for why further detention is necessary.
	Conducting this examination is in the detainee's best interests; it ensures that there really are proper lines of inquiry left to conduct. However, it is important to note that closed hearings get rarer as time goes on. In fact, in extension applications for 17 individuals after the 14-day point, only one ex parte hearing has been conducted by the prosecution.
	We continue to believe that extension proceedings are currently fully adversarial. The one that I saw at Paddington Green was amazingly thorough. It gave the man the opportunity to know what was going on and gave the judge the opportunity to really see what the police were doing; indeed, the judge gave the police a hard time and granted them only a small extension. The suspect is entitled to legal representation and to be present at the open part of the hearing.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: The Minister describes the process as fully adversarial, but am I right in thinking that a fully adversarial procedure would entitle the suspect to, as subsection (3) of the proposed new clause says,
	"a statement of the suspicion which forms the basis for the ... original arrest and continued detention, and ... the gist of the material on which the suspicion is based"?
	I am not talking about the evidence. I quite understand the reasons for excluding the person, for closed hearings and for all the rest of it, but am I right in saying that the procedure is not in any normal sense fully adversarial, as what is mentioned in subsection (3) is not at the moment provided to the person concerned?

Lord West of Spithead: It is not fully adversarial in the sense of a full court of law where the suspect has been charged; it certainly is not that.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: This is a matter of natural justice. We are not concerned whether there is a full court of law, but am I not right in saying that the suspect does not have,
	"a statement of the suspicion which forms the basis for the ... original arrest and continued detention",
	and that he is not given,
	"the gist of the material on which the suspicion is based"?

Lord West of Spithead: The detainee is made aware that he is there on suspicion of terrorism, but he is not given such information because he can pass on details of that and make changes to it when he is talking to his lawyer or in any way that he wishes.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I will not go on, but I am not talking about details. The amendment refers to,
	"the gist of the material".
	In other words, it is a summary, which does not have to disclose chapter and verse. However, the suspect is not given that at the moment, is he?

Lord West of Spithead: That is correct.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: Is the noble Lord aware that, in the Italian case to which he referred in our previous discussion, the statement of what was alleged against the person concerned was available from the preliminary judge within a week of that person's arrest? The noble Lord was making the point that the person had been held for a year, as though that were before charge, when in fact that person had the opportunity of knowing what was alleged against him and of addressing that.

Lord West of Spithead: I do not know the full details of that case but, as I said earlier, I am wary of making comparisons, because the situations are so different. When we wish to interview someone who is a terrorist suspect in another country, it is interesting to note how long they have sometimes been held. Even though the rules in that country might make it clear that they can be held for only four or five days, they still seem to be there the following year. I do not think that there is any merit in going into that detail, because the situations are so different.
	In this case, the suspect's lawyer is able to cross-examine the investigating officer to challenge the application rigorously. A senior judge oversees proceedings and ensures that the tests for further detention are satisfied before any extension is granted.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but is he aware that the Crown Prosecution Service view is that the detainee's lawyer is not entitled to cross-examine the officer who is bringing the application for extension? He may be allowed to do so in order to assist the judge—that is how it is put—but he has no right to do so. Will the noble Lord research that and perhaps tell us at a later date whether the CPS view is correct?

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Will the Minister also look into how you can cross-examine effectively if you do not know the basis of the suspicion and the gist of the material? How can you ask relevant questions when you do not know the substance of the case that you are questioning?

Lord West of Spithead: The police have to tell the suspect the basis of the reasonable suspicion—in other words, for terrorism or whatever it might be—and sufficient detail must be available to enable his legal adviser to challenge the basis of his detention.

The Earl of Onslow: The JCHR heard evidence—I am trying to recall it and I think that I am right—from defence solicitors that their ability to challenge in front of the judge was extremely limited. It is emphasised by what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, said on Amendment No. 29. Furthermore, if the police have said merely, "We suspect you of terrorism", it is so broad that it could be anything. If the officer says, "I suspect you of terrorism", it is jolly difficult even to begin to run an argument against it because it is so broad and so inchoate.

Lord West of Spithead: Enough data are available for the judge to ensure that proceedings are fair, which will normally allow the detainee or his lawyer to cross-examine the investigating officer. The extent of questioning is controlled by that judge to ensure that it is directed only to relevant matters and does not trespass on undisclosed or more difficult matters. The judge whom I accompanied at Paddington Green was extremely thorough. He went into considerable detail to make sure that it was appropriate for the man concerned to be held while further investigations were going on. He gave them only a very short time. That chap was charged and found guilty later. I was rather impressed by how that was done. I will certainly take away the point of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and look at it.
	Video links are often used for the suspect's appearance as both the security risks and resource implications justify such an approach; in any event, video link is routinely used in other judicial hearings. The judge may order the suspect to be present in person if there is reason. He or she does not always do that: it is often to do with security or movement of people. Such hearings without special advocates comply with human rights, but should in a particular case the judge consider that fairness requires a special advocate to be appointed, he or she could do so.
	In relation to the point that the existing grounds for issuing a warrant for the further detention of a suspect beyond 14 days should be amended to include a requirement that there are reasonable grounds for believing that the person has been involved in the commission, preparation or instigation of a terrorist offence, it is implicit in any successful application for a warrant that the initial arrest was lawful and that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting the person has committed a terrorist offence.
	The test for a lawful arrest under Section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000 is that the constable reasonably suspects that the individual is a terrorist as defined in Section 40 of that Act. This reasonable suspicion is an implicit prerequisite for the test which is currently required to extend pre-charge detention. If a court is to be satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for believing that further detention is necessary for the purposes of obtaining relevant evidence, there must inevitably be a reasonable suspicion that the person committed the offence. The minimum standard that the prosecution or police must demonstrate is that there are reasonable grounds on which to suspect that person. Conversely, without reasonable grounds to suspect that person, the prosecution or police could not even commence an application for further detention on grounds of securing relevant evidence.
	Therefore, it would not be possible for a court to authorise detention of a person under Schedule 8—or indeed under PACE, which also does not expressly require the court to consider the issue of reasonable suspicion—for any period without the reasonable suspicion required by Article 5.1(c). The extension of the maximum period to 42 days—if we were going that way—does not change this position as the test for continued detention remains the same.
	Finally, I point out that, in relation to legal aid, the arrested person is entitled to be legally represented at the application—and the person certainly was when I was there—and is entitled to legal aid for representation by a solicitor in the case of hearings relating to detention up to and including 14 days, or counsel in the case of hearings relating to detention for more than 14 days. I therefore resist that amendment.
	The purpose of Amendment No. 35 is threefold: to replace the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation with a panel of reviewers; to provide that the Motion approving the order for annual renewal of the 28-day limit cannot be made until a minimum of one month after the annual report on the operation of the Terrorism Act 2000, and Part 1 of the Terrorism Act 2006, has been published; and to provide that the Secretary of State cannot appoint the independent reviewer unless he or she lays a report on the appointment process before Parliament and it is agreed by affirmative procedure.
	In our response to the JCHR on 6 June, we made it clear that we do not consider it necessary to replace the independent reviewer with a panel of reviewers and that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has done, and continues to do, an excellent job. We do not accept that his post is too heavily loaded for one person. The appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, was renewed for a further three years in October 2007. We do not believe that it is necessary for Parliament to agree a report on the appointment process, as this is unnecessarily bureaucratic. Having a statutory requirement to publish the annual reports a month in advance of the renewal debates would be difficult. Where possible, we ensure that the report made by the independent reviewer is available in advance of the annual renewal debates, but this cannot be guaranteed. I therefore resist this amendment
	I am unable to accept Amendment No. 36. It seeks to put the threshold test used by the Crown Prosecution Service on a statutory footing, but only for cases with a terrorist connection. It would also require that defendants be informed which test had been used; the courts to set timetables regarding evidence; and annual reports by Her Majesty's Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate on the operation of the threshold test for cases with a terrorist connection.
	In rejecting this amendment, I have taken into account the fact that there is already a statutory requirement for the Director of Public Prosecutions to issue formal published guidance on charging under the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and the Criminal Justice Act 2003. This statutory framework emphasises the independence of the Crown Prosecution Service and recognises the need for regular revision by the Director of Public Prosecutions to take into account changes to the law or circumstances. Both those factors make the charging test unsuitable for primary legislation. It would be particularly inappropriate to enshrine only one of the charging standards in statute and only in relation to terrorism offences, when the threshold test is available for other offences.
	The current version of the code for Crown prosecutors was issued in 2004 and is the fifth edition. The code is laid before Parliament whenever it is revised, but the contents of the code are not statutory, although it is binding on prosecutors. The code was the subject of public consultation when it was last revised in 2004 and sets out two tests—the full code test and the threshold test. Both these tests have two stages—the evidential stage and the public interest stage. Interestingly, the amendments laid here do not mention the public interest test. Only if the evidential stage is met does the prosecutor go on to consider whether it is in the public interest to prosecute the case.
	Under the full code test, a suspect can be charged where there is a realistic prospect of conviction and it is in the public interest to charge that suspect. By contrast, the threshold test requires Crown prosecutors to decide whether there is at least a reasonable suspicion that the suspect has committed an offence and, if there is, whether it is in the public interest to charge. In deciding whether there is a reasonable suspicion, prosecutors must also make a clear evidential decision. They are directed under the code to consider the evidence already available and the reasonableness for believing that further relevant evidence will become available within a reasonable period sufficient to meet the full code test.
	Under the code, the threshold test is applied only to those cases in which it is not appropriate to release a suspect on bail after charge but the evidence to apply the full code test is not yet available. Obviously such circumstances may apply not just in terrorism cases but in other serious criminal cases as well.
	The threshold test is applied only for a limited period. The charging decision is kept under review by the prosecutor and the full code test must be met as soon as reasonably practicable. In addition, I should point out that Her Majesty's Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate already carries out thematic inspections of charging across criminal case work, and that includes the threshold test. A statutory requirement to inform the defendant which evidential test has been applied would not add value or safeguard the rights of the defendant.
	The criminal process already enables the defence to be informed of the evidential basis of the Crown's case at the first court hearing. In most cases, the first hearing will take place within 24 hours of the charging decision. At that stage, there will be clear consideration of the evidence in relation to the bail application. The Bail Act 1976 specifically requires the strength of evidence justifying retention in custody to be considered. The legal process already allows the court to set time limits for the service of further material. It also permits applications to the court to be made for the case to be dismissed due to lack of evidence at an early stage in proceedings.
	The Bail Act and the custody time limit regime further ensure that courts must consider the strength of the evidence against the defendant and the conduct of the prosecution when making a decision on whether the defendant should be bailed or remanded in custody. Advising the defence at the point of charge what test they have been charged under would not assist the defence or add any extra safeguards to the extensive ones that already exist. On the basis of what I have said I ask noble Lords to withdraw the amendment.
	On Amendment No. 71, we have considered the option of allowing terrorist suspects to be released on bail and have consulted the police. They did not recommend making police bail available for terrorist suspects because of the risks to public safety that might be involved. There is also a risk, which we are unwilling to take—

The Earl of Onslow: The Minister says that there is a risk to public safety involved in giving bail to terrorist suspects. However, some terrorist charges are quite minor, and when we visited the police, they seemed to have no objection in relation to those. Surely there would be an objection to bail if there was any suspicion of danger to the public, and it would be completely reasonable for bail to be refused. But if there is no suspicion of danger to the public—the person may have turned Queen's evidence or been co-operating considerably with the police—I would have thought that bail would be perfectly reasonable.

Lord West of Spithead: All I can say to the noble Earl is that the police considered that making bail available to terrorist subjects would risk public safety. They were also concerned that there was a risk, which we were unwilling to take, that evidence could be tampered with or, worse still, destroyed.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: The Minister has rightly stressed again today the independence of the judiciary, the value of the judicial process and the way in which one can trust judges to make wise judgments in the public interest. I enthusiastically agree with all of that. However, given that that is the Government's position, I do not understand why one should not at least empower the judiciary in exceptional cases to be able to grant bail. The Joint Committee recommended a provision,
	"to make court-ordered pre-charge bail with conditions available in relation to terrorism offences ... the availability of bail with conditions would enable the police to continue their investigation of those suspected of terrorism offences who do not pose a risk to public safety or a flight risk, while at the same time maintaining some control over them through bail conditions".
	Why can we not trust the judiciary with such a power to be able to protect the rights of liberty in those rare and exceptional cases referred to by the Joint Committee?

Lord West of Spithead: I have some sympathy with the noble Lord's point. The necessary requirement test in paragraph 32 of Schedule 8 ensures that each case is assessed on its merits. If the test is not met, the court has the power to release the suspect rather than grant continued detention. I shall take this away and look at it, because there might be some room for flexibility. I would rather do that because, as I say, I respect the sense of our judiciary in some of these cases. However, in most terrorist cases, I would be very concerned about suspects being released on bail.

The Earl of Onslow: Those of us on the JCHR are just as concerned. Nobody is saying that anybody whom anybody thinks is a risk to public safety should be released on bail. We are saying that if there is a risk it can be put in front of the judge, who will not give bail.

Lord West of Spithead: Then I think that we are probably on the same wavelength. I will take the amendment away and look at it, because I think that one can generally rely on the common sense of the judiciary in these areas. In the mean time, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.
	The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, mentioned the independent commissioner, and he is absolutely right. I thought that that seemed like a very good idea indeed, though I admit that I have not had the full answer from all of my officials on it yet. I know that they have said that they do not think that it is necessary; that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, reviews it; and that independent visitors can visit—all of which are good points. However, I would like to pursue this a little further as well. There may be administrative or other reasons why it is impossible, but I would like to be certain that that is the case. I hope that I have answered the other questions. If so, I would be grateful if the amendment were withdrawn.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I have listened to the Minister's reply on Amendment No. 35 with some interest. I make it clear that, as my noble friend Lord Carlile mentioned in the earlier debate, he and I have been close friends and colleagues for 37 years. I do not for a moment doubt his integrity or—although I may disagree with him—the reasons why he puts forward the views that he has expressed today. However, I wonder whether it is appropriate that the independent reviewer should have an office within the Home Office itself and be serviced by Home Office officials, which is the current position. This does not just apply to my noble friend Lord Carlile but to anybody who may hold that office in the future. If we are to have an independent reviewer, he should be seen to be independent, have his own office and staff, and, when he comes to give his view to both your Lordships and to Parliament as a whole, we should know that it comes from somebody who is in no way influenced by the views circulating in the Home Office at any particular moment. It may not be my noble friend, but his successor.
	On Amendment No. 36, there is a great deal of sense in having a statutory basis for the threshold charging. As I pointed out in my speech earlier today, the guidance issued by the Director of Public Prosecutions to his prosecutors was not published and did not come to light until February of this year. For a period of two to three years, the public were unaware of the nature of the threshold charging going on in terrorism cases. That involved not only a reasonable suspicion that a person had committed a terrorist offence but that there was a likelihood that more evidence would come to light. Further, that decision could be based on inadmissible evidence—intelligence or intercept evidence. It seems to me that we ought not to encourage the Director of Public Prosecutions to give guidance to public prosecutors that is not absolutely transparent and known to everybody concerned in this field. I respectfully suggest that the Minister takes that on board and returns to these issues at Report.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I hope I may make a couple of points that are pleasant for the Minister to hear. First, I pay tribute to the appointment of the new Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer QC, who is one of the most outstanding human rights lawyers at the English Bar. The fact that he succeeds Ken Macdonald, a most impressive holder of that office, is a most important safeguard. I always believe that people are more important than rules or legal structures and the fact that Keir Starmer QC will hold that office constitutes a confidence-building measure.
	Secondly, I thank the Minister for his very full reply. I am sure that the Joint Committee on Human Rights will need to look with great care at everything that he has said this evening when deciding what response is called for. Thirdly, I personally am sympathetic to the use of the special advocate procedure, and indeed I have said so consistently. People forget that it originated in a case in Strasbourg and was a Canadian procedure recommended by Amnesty International which came to be used in the Special Immigration Appeals Commission. I well understand why that is a desirable compromise between full adversarial justice and inquisitorial justice. However, it is vital to think very carefully about any further safeguards against abuse that one can build into the system, always accepting that nothing should be done to enable a suspected terrorist to gain access to information which might then be leaked or used by terrorist organisations. Speaking for myself, I very much welcome the spirit in which the Minister has spoken. As I say, I am sure that we shall want to look with great care at what he said.

Baroness Stern: I thank everyone who has spoken to these amendments. I very much appreciate the well informed support that they have received. I also thank the Minister for his extremely helpful and thoughtful replies. It was good to hear that closed hearings are getting rarer, as we did not know that. It was encouraging to hear that the Minister sat through a hearing at Paddington Green and saw for himself what happened. That builds our confidence in discussing these matters with him as he knows exactly what issues are involved.
	Matters have emerged in the debate that are worthy of further thought. We are all grateful to the Minister for agreeing to take away the point about bail. Some of the police with whom members of the Joint Committee spoke thought that it was a very sensible idea. I hope that some of the other points we raised about the clear and evident independence of the reviewer will be strengthened. However, as I said, these are probing amendments. We may wish to return to some of these matters on Report, but in the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	[Amendments Nos. 35 and 36 not moved.]

Lord Brett: I beg to move that the House do now resume.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
	House resumed.
	House adjourned at 9.45 pm.